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Space Travel / Split From "THIS WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER! [etc.]"

Started by Old Seer, June 21, 2020, 05:13:16 PM

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xSilverPhinx

I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Recusant

Quote from: billy rubin on June 25, 2020, 01:09:46 AM
why would we be doing this?

not meaning to be contrary, but i m curious as to the purpose

Because why the Hel not? Why would people bother to explore at all, if they've got what they want where they are? In my opinion, the Universe is our real home--this planet happens to be where we were born.

I'd agree that from a particular point of view, we're a cancer on this planet. What else would an intelligent cancer want to do but take over as much territory as possible? It doesn't worry too much about killing its host, but if it sees that its host is only part of a much more expansive whole: "I'll tell you what, I think I see some possible territory out there."

Maybe I've let the game of Go influence my thinking too deeply, but that's how I see it. No further justification is needed.
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


xSilverPhinx

Quote from: Recusant on July 27, 2020, 02:00:35 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on June 25, 2020, 01:09:46 AM
why would we be doing this?

not meaning to be contrary, but i m curious as to the purpose

Because why the Hel not? Why would people bother to explore at all, if they've got what they want where they are? In my opinion, the Universe is our real home--this planet happens to be where we were born.

I'd agree that from a particular point of view, we're a cancer on this planet. What else would an intelligent cancer want to do but take over as much territory as possible? It doesn't worry too much about killing its host, but if it sees that its host is only part of a much more expansive whole: "I'll tell you what, I think I see some possible territory out there."

Maybe I've let the game of Go influence my thinking too deeply, but that's how I see it. No further justification is needed.

The way I see it, humans are a curious species. Just like lab rats, who tend to fully explore their environments, if not too anxious to do so. Rats are curious as hell and I'd bet if they had the mental chops to build a working spaceship they would have gone to the moon too.  ;D

We know they can drive:



(Apparently they love it too)

Next step, man a spaceship! Err...rat a spaceship? :notsure:
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Randy

The rat is kind of cute. I wish they had a video of it driving. :)

I had always hoped to see mankind landing on Mars. I know it's expensive and I know it is much more dangerous than landing on the moon given that quite a few probes failed to land for one reason or another. I haven't forgotten Apollo 13 as I watched the news updates about it sometimes when I wasn't out playing.
"Maybe it's just a bunch of stuff that happens." -- Homer Simpson
"Some people focus on the destination. Atheists focus on the journey." -- Barry Goldberg

billy rubin

until we come up with a more or less free source of space-travel level energy, space travel will be reztricted to occazional political parades or shortlived national vanity projects.

the main engines on the saturn rockets that drove the apollo program burned two tons of fuel per second to achieve escape velocity. at the time, the cost to put one pound of payload into orbit was US $10,000, in 1970 dollars.

i dont know what it will cost to go to mars, and i dont doubt that we will put a human being there someday. but i think our money could be better spent on national goals that actually help people.

look at the moon. we went there, patted ourselves on the back, never returned. no reason to have gone at all, it seems, except for politics.

i think therecare more serious things to attend to closer to home, myself.


"I cannot understand the popularity of that kind of music, which is based on repetition. In a civilized society, things don't need to be said more than three times."

Recusant

Large science projects are good for the economy. Complain about the immense military budget of the US before dismissing science as something to be dispensed with because there's some "better" way to spend the money.

QuoteBritish astronomer Brian Cox has pointed out for every dollar spent on space exploration, there has been at least a $7 to $40 return.

[source]

You can believe Brian Cox or not, but I've heard similar assertions from other reputable sources.

I really don't understand how somebody can make a claim (implicit or otherwise) that the Apollo program was a waste of money. The benefits returned were easily worth the expenditure. Going to the Moon was an epoch-making event, but I agree it was at its heart a political action. Nonetheless, looking over items in the list found in the above source--items that have saved people's lives--I don't think the "better ways to spend the taxpayers' money" argument holds up.

That list is focused on Apollo, but NASA developments in the years since have been of considerable benefit as well. "NASA Technologies Benefit Our Lives" | NASA Spinoff
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


billy rubin

Quote from: Recusant on July 28, 2020, 05:10:39 AM
Large science projects are good for the economy. Complain about the immense military budget of the US before dismissing science as something to be dispensed with because there's some "better" way to spend the money.

well, think about what's really going on. you've brought up a useful point. if the goal is economic returns, the military is vastly better at stimulating the economy than science. it was the second world war that ended the 1930s depression, not any successful scientific projects.

nasa's entire 2019 budget is some US$22.6 billion dollars. an american aircraft carrier costs about US$14 billion dollars to build, and the strike group costs US$6.5 million per day to run. just in terms of money and jobs, there's lots more running through the economy to keep the military going than NASA, and its that money in flow that provides jobs and stimulates industry.

NASA employees 17,000 people. the US military employs as 1,359,000. if the goal is the economy, then science loses again, or at least NASA certainly does. every dollar spent in building bombs and killing children in third world countries does much more for american jobs than going to mars ever will.

there's valid arguments for promoting scientific research into space travel. but i don't think stimulating the economy is one of them.









"I cannot understand the popularity of that kind of music, which is based on repetition. In a civilized society, things don't need to be said more than three times."

Recusant

Nicely missing the point there, which can happen when most of a post is ignored. Apparently you agree that both NASA and the military help stimulate the US economy. Apparently you don't dispute that NASA research has improved people's lives, and in fact has saved many people's lives. You could in turn argue that there have been positive benefits from military research as well. So, hooray military.

What are the relative goals of the two endeavors? One is to learn about and explore the environment beyond this planet, the other is to "defend the country" which is a euphemism for "develop and employ more effective and useful ways to kill people." Both are irrelevant to the issue I was raising, as are the relative economic benefits of funding space exploration and associated research versus funding the military.

I'm questioning the assertion that there are "better" ways to spend money than funding space exploration, absent a consideration of its economic contribution to the country, absent weighing the many benefits and improvements to people's lives brought by space exploration research, really absent any tangible justification other than waving a hand at "more serious things to attend to closer to home."
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


billy rubin

so is the issue here a comparison of the relative economic contributions of a space program versus th emilitary, or just how much disdain you hold for the military in general, recusant?

i didn't address your link because there was nothing in the american space programs contributions to society that couldn't have been developed cheaper if we'd left the space part out, including the "portable cordless vacuums" and "infrared ear thermometers." maybe it wouldn't have happened without the public space frenzy, or maybe it would have. no way to know now, th emoney's been spent, and there have been benefits, no question.

but do you know about the dhalits who scavenge for things to sell on the rubbish heaps of india? here's a picture:



and here's a picture of india's first successful space shuttle launch:





just how much immediate benefit are the dhalits receiving from india's space program? how many "infrared ear thermometers" will address what's missing in their lives?


"I cannot understand the popularity of that kind of music, which is based on repetition. In a civilized society, things don't need to be said more than three times."

Recusant

Your attempt at button pushing is all very well, but you haven't actually addressed the critique of your position. Nor have you justified your assertions, including the claim that beneficial developments made by the space program could have been "done cheaper" if they hadn't been part of the program. That appears to be a WAG to me, but maybe you can back it up. If we're going blue sky here, let me know.
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


billy rubin

recusant, you have an attitude on this subject, and it doesn't allow you to support your position very well.

my belief is that space travel is a waste of time and resources that could be utilized to improve the human condition.  it's indifferent to me whether it compares favorably with military spending or not. you brought up the military, not me.

first, i think its inarguable that billions of people on this planet are hungry, diseased, and impoverished. i can think of no direct or indirect benefits from a national space program that will address these issues as efficiently as spending that same money directly on the problems on the ground.

second, space exploration is a pipe dream until we solve the cost/energy problem. it simply takes too much energy to do anything more than launch a few probes or landers every few years. that is fundamental problem of physics-- putting something in orbit is vastly expensive in resources and money.

you assert that i am not addressing your critique of my position. is this your critique?

QuoteI'm questioning the assertion that there are "better" ways to spend money than funding space exploration, absent a consideration of its economic contribution to the country, absent weighing the many benefits and improvements to people's lives brought by space exploration research, really absent any tangible justification other than waving a hand at "more serious things to attend to closer to home."

in the end, there isn't any better way to do anything at all. in the end, we're all dead, food for the worms,  sooner or later. but given that, i deny that space travel research has provided any extensive benefits that justify expanding its spending in any hard analysis. i deny that its economic contribution versus its cost to this country is efficient, except for the money spent at movie theatres watching star wars sequels.

in my opinion, space programs are just national entertainment, catering to a different group of people than the football crowds, but serving the same purposes. for that, they're excellent.



"I cannot understand the popularity of that kind of music, which is based on repetition. In a civilized society, things don't need to be said more than three times."

Recusant

Quote from: billy rubin on July 29, 2020, 02:14:47 AM
recusant, you have an attitude on this subject, and it doesn't allow you to support your position very well.

my belief is that space travel is a waste of time and resources that could be utilized to improve the human condition.  it's indifferent to me whether it compares favorably with military spending or not. you brought up the military, not me.

first, i think its inarguable that billions of people on this planet are hungry, diseased, and impoverished. i can think of no direct or indirect benefits from a national space program that will address these issues as efficiently as spending that same money directly on the problems on the ground.

second, space exploration is a pipe dream until we solve the cost/energy problem. it simply takes too much energy to do anything more than launch a few probes or landers every few years. that is fundamental problem of physics-- putting something in orbit is vastly expensive in resources and money.

you assert that i am not addressing your critique of my position. is this your critique?

QuoteI'm questioning the assertion that there are "better" ways to spend money than funding space exploration, absent a consideration of its economic contribution to the country, absent weighing the many benefits and improvements to people's lives brought by space exploration research, really absent any tangible justification other than waving a hand at "more serious things to attend to closer to home."

in the end, there isn't any better way to do anything at all. in the end, we're all dead, food for the worms,  sooner or later. but given that, i deny that space travel research has provided any extensive benefits that justify expanding its spending in any hard analysis. i deny that its economic contribution versus its cost to this country is efficient, except for the money spent at movie theatres watching star wars sequels.

in my opinion, space programs are just national entertainment, catering to a different group of people than the football crowds, but serving the same purposes. for that, they're excellent.



Thank you for stating clearly that it's your opinion, and nothing more, that space exploration is a waste of resources.

You've been unable to justify that opinion other than pointing to the fact that people on this planet are suffering. As if eliminating space programs would have any appreciable effect on that situation.

I'm not going to stoop to the same sort of goading that you seem to enjoy, so I'll leave it at that.
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


billy rubin

you have a problem on this subject, recusant.

i suggest you consider why. i dont have any idea.


"I cannot understand the popularity of that kind of music, which is based on repetition. In a civilized society, things don't need to be said more than three times."

Recusant

Quote from: billy rubin on July 29, 2020, 04:00:59 AM
you have a problem on this subject, recusant.

i suggest you consider why. i dont have any idea.

:snicker:  You already tried that one once. Were you incapable of concocting another, or did you think that repeating it would produce the desired result?
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Recusant

An extract from Once Upon a Time I Lived on Mars, a memoir about living in a Mars mission isolation simulation. It reminded me of the excellent novel The Wanderers by Meg Howrey.

"I Lived in a Dome in Hawaii to Simulate Life on Mars" | The Daily Beast

Quote. . . We were warned about the effects of isolation in small and large ways. The small ways: brief mentions during our pre-mission conference calls about tensions that arise between crew members and their friends, family, and mission support back home. Stories about small annoyances on previous analog missions—others' chewing sounds, hurt feelings when movie night selections weren't respected or worse, mocked, and the overall lack of privacy—thin walls and the fact that most space is shared space. We heard how these irritants had led to emotional outbursts on other simulated missions or how they'd been stuffed into sacks of silent grudges, to spill out upon return to Earth.

The large ways in which we were warned: the multiple hours-long discussions to discover what our breaking points would be. Would we abandon the mission if we got a sudden job offer? If someone back home got sick? If someone died? If we got sick? How sick? Mentally? Physically? If we lost faith in our crewmates, or in the project entirely?

[Link to full excerpt.]
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken