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Lying:

Started by Bad Penny II, May 03, 2018, 02:00:18 PM

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xSilverPhinx

Pardon my asking, billy rubin, but did you ever have to care for someone with severe dementia or have someone close to you afflicted with such a disease?

You've compared lying to a dementia patient to a person receiving a fatal diagnosis (I'm assuming of a sound mind) more than once, and treat them the same, but they are not the same, for moral and practical reasons.

Another difficult scenario: would you tell a very young child that their parents will one day be dead/gone forever? I can't think of anything a young one could hear that would be more distressful and could have lasting emotional implications in some children. Would you put them through that before they are a little older and more mature so you could feel better about yourself because you didn't withhold the truth? Serious question.
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


billy rubin

#31
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 03, 2020, 02:46:08 PM
Pardon my asking, billy rubin, but did you ever have to care for someone with severe dementia or have someone close to you afflicted with such a disease?

my grandfather spent his lazt years asking the woman in bed with him if she waz hiz wife. she explained to him each time that she had been his wife for fifty years. i have 25 percent of his chromosomez and expect to have a one in four chance of endi g up the same way.  i have never had to care for anyone personally and would find dealing with truth and honezty in the relationship as the most important mark of compassion and respect i can imagine.

Quote
You've compared lying to a dementia patient to a person receiving a fatal diagnosis (I'm assuming of a sound mind) more than once, and treat them the same, but they are not the same, for moral and practical reasons.

tbey are exactly the zame. both acts dehumanize another person.

Quote
Another difficult scenario: would you tell a very young child that their parents will one day be dead/gone forever? I can't think of anything a young one could hear that would be more distressful and could have lasting emotional implications in some children. Would you put them through that before they are a little older and more mature so you could feel better about yourself because you didn't withhold the truth? Serious question.

i have never lied to a child, which i regard az an act of ultimate betrayal of care and rezponsibility.  i have five children, and have never lied to tbem at any time, on any subject. two are now adults, and all are apparently normal.

silver, would you betray tbe trust of a child in order to go home and feel better about yourself, knowing that forcing the child to grow up in a lie waz lezz important than you getting a goox nights sleep by avoiding a very difficult part of genuine care and nurture?

this is abzolutely not an easy question, and theres no way being honezt is an eazy tbing. deception is always easy, but in my mibd it is alwayz wrong. i think the answer when confronted with tbe dilemma is to look for a better way.


"I cannot understand the popularity of that kind of music, which is based on repetition. In a civilized society, things don't need to be said more than three times."

Siz

Quote from: billy rubin on January 03, 2020, 01:27:56 PM
since you have asked me, my answer is no.

lying to me is a dehumanizing act, one which treats me as a fixture to be silenced, like an annoyingly leaky faucet.

treating me with compassion, as a human being deserving of tbought and care, requirez more than an easy lie. it requires care and attention  to who i am, in each and every instance.

in america we drug people in care facilities who present us with decizionz we dont want to deal with. lying to me is no different.
Asking someone to relive the grief of loss every single day does not strike me as compassionate. But, bravo for winning the integrity Gold medal!

When one sleeps on the floor one need not worry about falling out of bed - Anton LaVey

The universe is a cold, uncaring void. The key to happiness isn't a search for meaning, it's to just keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually you'll be dead!

billy rubin

i'm a nihilizt, siz. there's no meaning to be found here.

do you believe otherwise?


"I cannot understand the popularity of that kind of music, which is based on repetition. In a civilized society, things don't need to be said more than three times."

Siz

Quote from: billy rubin on January 03, 2020, 03:47:01 PM
i'm a nontheist, siz. there's no meaning to be found here.

do you believe otherwise?
Sorry, Bizzy, I don't understand the relevance of that post.

When one sleeps on the floor one need not worry about falling out of bed - Anton LaVey

The universe is a cold, uncaring void. The key to happiness isn't a search for meaning, it's to just keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually you'll be dead!

Siz

Quote from: billy rubin on January 03, 2020, 03:47:01 PM
i'm a nihilizt, siz. there's no meaning to be found here.

do you believe otherwise?

Now, what would a Nihilist be doing do with a compulsion to tell the truth?

When one sleeps on the floor one need not worry about falling out of bed - Anton LaVey

The universe is a cold, uncaring void. The key to happiness isn't a search for meaning, it's to just keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually you'll be dead!

billy rubin

there iz no such tbing as truth, or integrity either, siz, in the end. no medals, no self-satizfaction. no right, no wrong, no valid moral compass. no good, no evil.

nothing you or i do can change that.

the absurdity of the situation is that i chooze to live as if there were meaning. so an illusion of integrity, of treating people with truth, respect, and compazsion, is in the end a suit of clothes that i wear. it lets me fit in, even tbough i know it can be taken off, and many people do.

but i do it anyway, and on good dayz it even feelz like it might be real. treating other people sith the same respect i would hope for myself is part of that.


"I cannot understand the popularity of that kind of music, which is based on repetition. In a civilized society, things don't need to be said more than three times."

Siz

Quote from: billy rubin on January 03, 2020, 04:04:18 PM
there iz no such tbing as truth, or integrity either, siz, in the end. no medals, no self-satizfaction. no right, no wrong, no valid moral compass. no good, no evil.

nothing you or i do can change that.

the absurdity of the situation is that i chooze to live as if there were meaning. so an illusion of integrity, of treating people with truth, respect, and compazsion, is in the end a suit of clothes that i wear. it lets me fit in, even tbough i know it can be taken off, and many people do.

but i do it anyway, and on good dayz it even feelz like it might be real. treating other people as if tbey deserve rezpect is part of that.
So, you don't think any of it has any meaning, yet you still choose to inflict unnecessary grief on people for the sake of your emperors new clothes? You're a nasty piece of work, Bizzy.





When one sleeps on the floor one need not worry about falling out of bed - Anton LaVey

The universe is a cold, uncaring void. The key to happiness isn't a search for meaning, it's to just keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually you'll be dead!

billy rubin

well, of courze i disagree, siz. i think your suggeztion is much worze.

but since we're all non-believers here, would it be better just to shoot them in the head instead and avoid all the unnecessary bother?

jesuz isnt stopping us.



"I cannot understand the popularity of that kind of music, which is based on repetition. In a civilized society, things don't need to be said more than three times."

Siz

Quote from: billy rubin on January 03, 2020, 04:54:44 PM
well, of courze i disagree, siz. i think your suggeztion is much worze.

but since we're all non-believers here, would it be better just to shoot them in the head instead and avoid all the unnecessary bother?

jesuz isnt stopping us.

I'm probably the wrong person to ask that of, but the point is that your brand of 'respect' is more concerned with your own (meaningless?) sensibilies than the (real) suffering of others.

Perhaps we can discuss what you mean by 'respect'? I would consider your choice to ask me to experience the grief of the death of my wife, fresh, day after day the epitome of disrespect. The height of cruelty, in fact.

(Full disclosure: She's not dead)




When one sleeps on the floor one need not worry about falling out of bed - Anton LaVey

The universe is a cold, uncaring void. The key to happiness isn't a search for meaning, it's to just keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually you'll be dead!

billy rubin

Quote from: Siz on January 03, 2020, 05:27:45 PM
I'm probably the wrong person to ask that of, but the point is that your brand of 'respect' is more concerned with your own (meaningless?) sensibilies than the (real) suffering of others.

Perhaps we can discuss what you mean by 'respect'? I would consider your choice to ask me to experience the grief of the death of my wife, fresh, day after day the epitome of disrespect. The height of cruelty, in fact.

(Full disclosure: She's not dead)



well, before i can answer that, we have to agree on a common ground for discuzsion.

you've touched on the core of the important matter with your judgement that my sensibilities are "meani nglezz," siz.

whose sensibilities are meaningful? yours?

why?



"I cannot understand the popularity of that kind of music, which is based on repetition. In a civilized society, things don't need to be said more than three times."

No one

Lying isn't as black and white as exhibited by the painting.

Siz

Quote from: billy rubin on January 03, 2020, 06:12:07 PM
Quote from: Siz on January 03, 2020, 05:27:45 PM
I'm probably the wrong person to ask that of, but the point is that your brand of 'respect' is more concerned with your own (meaningless?) sensibilies than the (real) suffering of others.

Perhaps we can discuss what you mean by 'respect'? I would consider your choice to ask me to experience the grief of the death of my wife, fresh, day after day the epitome of disrespect. The height of cruelty, in fact.

(Full disclosure: She's not dead)



well, before i can answer that, we have to agree on a common ground for discuzsion.

you've touched on the core of the important matter with your judgement that my sensibilities are "meani nglezz," siz.

Not my judgement, all yours:
Quote from: bizzy
the absurdity of the situation is that i chooze to live as if there were meaning. so an illusion of integrity, of treating people with truth, respect, and compazsion, is in the end a suit of clothes that i wear. it lets me fit in, even tbough i know it can be taken off...
...Or were you lying?

When one sleeps on the floor one need not worry about falling out of bed - Anton LaVey

The universe is a cold, uncaring void. The key to happiness isn't a search for meaning, it's to just keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually you'll be dead!

Ecurb Noselrub

Generally, lying ain't good, but I can think of examples where it would be good. Which means that "don't lie" is not a fundamental principle - there is something above it that determines its morality in a given instance.  For example, I would willingly lie to a psychopath or Nazi to protect someone I loved, or even a group of people who needed to remain hidden.  It appears that the governing principle is something in the order of "do that which promotes life and well-being" or, as Siz says, the Golden Rule.   

billy rubin

Quote from: Siz on January 03, 2020, 06:38:45 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 03, 2020, 06:12:07 PM
Quote from: Siz on January 03, 2020, 05:27:45 PM
I'm probably the wrong person to ask that of, but the point is that your brand of 'respect' is more concerned with your own (meaningless?) sensibilies than the (real) suffering of others.

Perhaps we can discuss what you mean by 'respect'? I would consider your choice to ask me to experience the grief of the death of my wife, fresh, day after day the epitome of disrespect. The height of cruelty, in fact.

(Full disclosure: She's not dead)



well, before i can answer that, we have to agree on a common ground for discuzsion.

you've touched on the core of the important matter with your judgement that my sensibilities are "meani nglezz," siz.

Not my judgement, all yours:
Quote from: bizzy
the absurdity of the situation is that i chooze to live as if there were meaning. so an illusion of integrity, of treating people with truth, respect, and compazsion, is in the end a suit of clothes that i wear. it lets me fit in, even tbough i know it can be taken off...
...Or were you lying?

then i will spell it out, siz. remember, you asked me for my opinion.

i do believe my moral system is meaningless.

so is yours, no matter how attached you are to it.

we're all just thick masses of cosmic dust, temporarily passing through time and animated by chemical reactions. i choose an arbitrary set of rules to follow that are ultimately meaningless in order to move through life with as much harmony as i value.

good, evil, pain, suffering, adaptive fitness, social cohesion, kin selection, group selection, aesthetics, emotion, god, country, race and species-- all the parameters that we like to think underlie a moral system for us, are all meaningless. we just muddle through and do the best we can.






"I cannot understand the popularity of that kind of music, which is based on repetition. In a civilized society, things don't need to be said more than three times."