Saudi princess: What I'd change about my country

[Ali]

Here's a handy trick.  Ladies, if your weak little lady hands are having trouble opening a Jar of Something, thunk said Jar of Something on the counter.  You want to turn it sideways so that you are holding on to bottom part of the jar, keeping it perpendicular* to the counter, and hit the lid part on the counter.  Should help disturb the vaccuum and make it easier to open.  For good measure, you might also want to thunk the Jar of Something over the head of whichever helpful man is hovering nearby, ready to pluck it from your delicate lady fingers and open it with a properly hairy and manly flourish.



*In case your sweet little lady brain struggles delicately with geometry, because Ugh, Math?  I'd rather think about kitties and shoes!, perpendicular looks like a T.  As opposed to horizontal which looks like an = sign.  I know, I know, more math nonsense.  You could also picture horizonal as being two adorable little shoes, lined up in one direction and ready to be worn or swooned over, or whatever.  Wine and pedicures, am I right ladies?

[Tank]

{snip}

If we are to talk about a social phenomenon (like sexism) then it is prudent to generalise.

I would disagree because generalisations are the roots of 'isms. I don't want anybody to expect I behave in a particular way based on generalisations. Suppose for example one day one of your kids stumbles across some kiddy porn by accident and has a look around out of curiosity, they won't tell you because they know they will get in trouble. Six months later the police knock on your door and charge you with accessing a kiddy porn site because you're the adult male in the house. How are you going to defend yourself? You can't you're going down because of a generalisation. This is why generalisation are the fallacy of the average.

Of course there are exceptions, but we could not formulate ANY kind of workable social system if we are forced to account for every exception.

Has anybody tried? Why bother with wheelchair access, hearing loops, studded paving stones, audible tones on pedestrian crossings? Our society to some extent fails almost everybody in primary and secondary education simply because we rely too much on generalisations.

If you will not allow us to debate a social issue based on reasonable generalisations then we're not going to get very far on any subject. I argue that my generalisations ARE reasonable because the facts of gender difference are well established and undisputed.

If these gender differences are 'well established and undisputed' it shouldn't be too difficult for you to cite the scientific research that support you position. I'm prepared to read the research but if you can't provide the research them I'm going to have to ignore your unfounded assertion that gender differences are 'well established and undisputed'.

I can not apologise for acting towards a woman in a way that I consider it appropriate to act towards women. Yes, I am guilty of treating every female stranger I meet with equal respect. And I am prejudiced when I relate to women, just like I am prejudiced when I relate to children, or dogs, or spiders because they have discrete mental motivations.

They have individual motivations. Children and dogs have very different personalities so I'm afraid your analogy just turned around and bit you in the arse

Let's try to put sexism into context here. If I am to treat women equally then I would request reciprocal consideration and not be made predominantly responsible for certain physical chores around the house. Is that not fair? (and for the record I undertake many traditionally wifely duties around the house with pride).

Why would request reciprocal consideration? Are you totally inflexible? I doubt it. Is your behaviour totally reactive to those around you? I expect it isn't. Do you do bad things because people around you do bad things or good things because the people around you do good things? No I don't think you do (I don't either). I do things because I think they are right I don't do other things because I think they are bad. I don't require reciprocity to do what I know I should do.

It's sad that one would consider an act of respectful chivalry an expression of dominance or superiority. Especially as we men suffer the social dilemma of not knowing whether we're dealing with a feminist or traditionalist when we approach the lift doors.

Isn't it simply polite to hold a lift door for anybody, irrespective of race, age or gender? If a woman gets the hump because she perceives your politeness as sexism then that's her problem, not yours.

You may choose to call it sexist, I'd call it a celebration of our gender differences.

Sexism is a prejudice where an individual behaves towards another individual of the opposite gender based on stereotypes of that gender. I can't see any way that description does not apply to many of your statements. But I'm willing to be shown where I'm wrong.

[TheWalkingContradiction]

I am sorry that my use of a quote (a Saudi man calling women queens that one must sacrifice oneself to serve) has caused such a breakdown in communication.  Just a few comments.

1. I agree that the comment about queens was sexist at its base, but in context I was trying to show Saudi affection instead of hate for women.  As Westerners, we cannot expect everyone to express himself or herself in terms of Western culture.  I doubt the man who made the remark about queens has any context in which to understand why we Westerners (myself included) think his attitude is sexist.  He probably (and rightfully so) thinks himself a step above people who mistreat women.

2. In my experience, non-Western women rally the strongest against Western feminism.  I once taught an article I agree with that expressed how women do less well in math and science because girls are encouraged to play with dolls instead of taking things apart and putting them back together like boys.  In addition, parents and teachers have different expectations for boys and girls, and while these expectations can be communicated consciously they are more often communicated unconsciously.  Most of the Asian and Arab women in my class roared with laughter and strongly disagreed.  Only a handful agreed.

3. When we talk about feminism, secularism, gay rights, liberalism, and so on in non-Western cultures, we run the risk of imposing our values on others.  This differs little from colonialism, in which the superior European or American culture wants to teach the 'savages' Western (read that as "civilized") values.  Mind you, there is certainly an important place for feminism and the rest on non-Western cultures, but the dialogue must be within the cultural norms of the culture in question instead of the cultural norms of the Western world.  (This is an idea I can expand on if you wish.)

4. For what it is worth, I agree that many men (not all) have superior upper body strength.  However, women's bodies are stronger than men's because evolution has equipped women with the ability to withstand the stress of pregnancy.  For this reason, more women than men survive plagues, for example; Medieval Europe is a case in point.  There are also more women than men in the world despite female infanticide, and some argue that females are more resilient than men even as infants facing illness.  Many women live longer than men, although it is not clear if this is biological or sociological--the latter being a result of most women's not being corporate higher ups and the like, with all the ensuing unnatural stress, until recently.  Further, most societies allow women to express emotions (even if they unfairly mock and stereotype them) while many men develop high blood pressure and heart problems from holding in so many emotions year after year.  "Real" men do indeed cry (despite what people say); the proof is the existence of male tear ducts.  However, men are not always permitted the necessity and dignity of crying to relieve emotional stress.

[Ali]

Oh sorry, my lady brain got in a tizzy and forgot to answer the other part I wanted to address.  Must be all that blood pooling in my womb and away from my brain, amiright?

I don't mind it when anyone holds the door for me.  I smile and say thank you.  However, I would not appreciate a strange man putting his hand on the small of my back and guiding me onto an elevator like I'm an idiot that can't board an elevator without a big strong man to help me.  Beyond condescending.

[OldGit]

People often hold doors for people.

[En_Route]

Oh sorry, my lady brain got in a tizzy and forgot to answer the other part I wanted to address.  Must be all that blood pooling in my womb and away from my brain, amiright?

I don't mind it when anyone holds the door for me.  I smile and say thank you.  However, I would not appreciate a strange man putting his hand on the small of my back and guiding me onto an elevator like I'm an idiot that can't board an elevator without a big strong man to help me.  Beyond condescending.

You're in a cantankerous mood today. Must be your time of month. Anyway  I can't hang around chatting to you as I need  to have a chinwag with a spider.

[En_Route]

People often hold doors for people.

Not usually these days in recognition of their female gender constituting a disability .

[TheWalkingContradiction]

(I do wish we could talk about Saudi Arabia.  

I really, really, really want to talk about Saudi Arabia.  But...)

An addition.

I can see both viewpoints.

It is polite to hold the door for all regardless of age and sex.  I do this and most appreciate it.  Some do not.  There is nothing sexist in my action because I do it equally for men and women.   My rationale is that if I am carrying many things or in a hurry, I would hope someone would do the same for me.

However, Ali is right when she says that some men can be very sexist about the way they do it, as if the woman who is merely strolling through the door is a Lady Fair in need of Sir Lancelot to rescue her from the diabolical doorknob.  Some males take an unusual amount of pride in having rendered such a great service.  Is contemporary masculinity so weak that it can only be satisfied by door positioning?

It reminds me of an early 1960s Legion of Super-Heroes story.  A group of male legionnaires and one female legionnaire ("Saturn Girl," although she is too old to be called a "girl") are battling their arch enemy, the Time Trapper.  It looks as if the Legion will lose, and one of the males implores the Time Trapper: "Kill us, if you must.  But spare Saturn Girl.  She's a girl!"

Actually, Saturn Girl, who can mentally leap into a person's mind and take control of that person, is hardly in need of saving.  Over the years, she has saved many of the boys many times.

[Tank]

(I do wish we could talk about Saudi Arabia.  

I really, really, really want to talk about Saudi Arabia.  But...)

{snip}

Then start a thread about Saudi Arabia!

[TheWalkingContradiction]

RE-EDIT: I edited this post before I saw the one by Tank that follows.  When he first saw it, only my first two paragraphs were here.

(I do wish we could talk about Saudi Arabia.  

I really, really, really want to talk about Saudi Arabia.  But...)

{snip}

Then start a thread about Saudi Arabia!

But this is a thread about Saudi Arabia.  At least it was...  Why do we need two?

Wouldn't it be more appropriate for this to remain a thread about Saudi Arabia (per the thread's title) and the discussion on holding doors to go to a new thread?

The nastiness in this thread is unsettling, and I am posting on door holding to try to smooth it out.  I feel responsible, as a remark I made about women as queens (a remark that originally came from a Saudi student I was quoting, not something I agree with) derailed the topic and caused all this miscommunication.  I wish I had not printed that quote, but I cannot take it back.  All I can do is try to make nice, make peace, and get the topic back on track.  

[Tank]

(I do wish we could talk about Saudi Arabia.  

I really, really, really want to talk about Saudi Arabia.  But...)

{snip}

Then start a thread about Saudi Arabia!

But this is a thread about Saudi Arabia.  At least it was...  Why do we need two?

Wouldn't it be more appropriate for this to remain a thread about Saudi Arabia (per the thread's title) and the discussion on holding doors to go to a new thread?

Your logic is infallible. However logic never has held sway in forum land in my experience. I think this thread is irrevocably derailed. If you start a Saudi thread we'll keep it on track.

[Ali]

Oh sorry, my lady brain got in a tizzy and forgot to answer the other part I wanted to address.  Must be all that blood pooling in my womb and away from my brain, amiright?

I don't mind it when anyone holds the door for me.  I smile and say thank you.  However, I would not appreciate a strange man putting his hand on the small of my back and guiding me onto an elevator like I'm an idiot that can't board an elevator without a big strong man to help me.  Beyond condescending.

You're in a cantankerous mood today. Must be your time of month. Anyway  I can't hang around chatting to you as I need  to have a chinwag with a spider.

*Clonks E_R over the head with a Jar of Something*

[En_Route]

Oh sorry, my lady brain got in a tizzy and forgot to answer the other part I wanted to address.  Must be all that blood pooling in my womb and away from my brain, amiright?

I don't mind it when anyone holds the door for me.  I smile and say thank you.  However, I would not appreciate a strange man putting his hand on the small of my back and guiding me onto an elevator like I'm an idiot that can't board an elevator without a big strong man to help me.  Beyond condescending.

You're in a cantankerous mood today. Must be your time of month. Anyway  I can't hang around chatting to you as I need  to have a chinwag with a spider.

*Clonks E_R over the head with a Jar of Something*

Note to self: Abandon all future attempts at irony.

[Siz]

Tank,

There is plenty of available material online, but the text I most often refer to is The Human Mind by Robert Winston. If you can find any excerpts online then be my guest. His research tells us that the testosterone in babies acts as an inhibitor to neural connections across the hemispheres of the brain. This means that the male brain (exposed to higher testosterone levels) has more intra-hemisphere neural connections (leading to a better capacity for mathematical thinking), and the female brain, well-connected across the hemispheres is better able to access emotions.
Whilst I do not know of any conflicting (or corroborating) research I have no particular reason to question the validity of this work. I trust you can accept this underpinning of my assertions.

I agree that Children, men, dogs, spiders and women all have different mental motivations (i didn't state otherwise) and it is sensible to relate to them all accordingly.

I do not expect to be treated the same, because I know I'm different. But if someone is to hypocritically expect equal, unprejudiced treatment when they are unwilling to demonstrate the same, I shall hold my own prejudiced ground. Surely that is only fair?
I don't do things because they are right, I do things because it suits me. It often suits me to do 'good' things, and sometimes not. But I do strive for equity and if I am not shown it, I will reciprocally react to achieve the balance I judge to be fair.

I do not deny that I am prejudiced. I make no apology for that - I'm a product of my surroundings. I argue that we all are. What I want is to get an admission that the women who cry 'sexism' are not immune from being tarred with the same brush when, in everyday life, subject their partners and other men to the same sexism. Before the whole issue can be fairly addressed this must be understood.

[Ali]

The nastiness in this thread is unsettling, and I am posting on door holding to try to smooth it out.  I feel responsible, as a remark I made about women as queens (a remark that originally came from a Saudi student I was quoting, not something I agree with) derailed the topic and caused all this miscommunication.  I wish I had not printed that quote, but I cannot take it back.  All I can do is try to make nice, make peace, and get the topic back on track.  

You are a very sweet and sensitive soul, aren't you?