Intro....

[Sandra Craft]

I guess I just don't really believe in a god/gods because there isn't any evidence. But, if evidence comes to light, then I would believe. That's probably a good estimate of where I'm at.

That's a good estimate of where most of us are at.  Contrary to the opinion of some religious who've been on these boards, if I were shown evidence of a god that stood up to whatever test could be thrown at it, I'd accept that it was real.  Worshipping would be another matter entirely, but I would accept that God or a god existed.  But I've noticed that many religious seem to take exception to the idea of testing this evidence, if it ever turned up.  That is an attitude I do not understand -- the whole point of evidence is that it stands up to tests.  Besides, Catholics test claimed miracles before they accept them as such, why would non-believers be less strict than Catholics?

I am in a real ranting mood tonight.  I've been baking all day and you'd think that would lead to a mellower disposition.  Oh well.  Anyway, welcome to the forum Asherah.

[Stevil]

Actually, the powers that be, that define Christianity, or at least lead the common interpretations are very careful to keep their teachings on a conceptual level (or metaphysical if you prefer).

The insistance on the necessity for faith and belief has some very interesting consequences.
This assures that there will never be any proof or evidence for god. That answered prayer cannot manifest in anyway measurable. If your prayed for regrowth of a severed limb was answered for example, this could be construed as proof of god, especially as limb regrowth simply doesn't happen in humans, certainly not without prayer and if it did happen but only to (Catholics or SDA or Muslims or Hindus) you name it, then we would know 1. that there was a god powerful enough to hear prayer and 2 powerful enough to answer limb regrowth prayer. But let's say that prayer falls within the domain of normal natural events e.g. cancer remission, well if prayer did work then statistically we would see that (Catholics or SDA or Muslims or Hindus) you name it are more likely to go into cancer remission that atheists. But because this is statistically testable then it breaks the premise  (necessity for faith and belief). Hence answered prayer cannot be anything tangible.
So what is left?
A person could say "I prayed to god to give me the strength to get through the struggles of having a loved one die of cancer".
This could "conceptually" be believed to be answered. We can't measure the "strength" before the prayer and the "strength" after the prayer. I am sure if we argued that the "strength" would improve the chances of not developing depression, then we measured the depression rates, which would show that there is no advantage, the prayer believers would simply state that it is not that kind of strength.

Wow. I couldn't have said it better. Genius!

Thanks Asherah,

Now taking this a step further.

Not only can the all perfect, all powerful god not perform sinful actions such as lie, cheat, steal, etc, but due to the necessity to judge people on their faith and belief this means the all perfect, all powerful god cannot perform tangible miracles. It cannot influence the material world in a way that is inconsistent with the rules of nature otherwise as our scientists more accurately model nature with their documented and tested laws of physics we would notice anomalies proving intelligent intervention. If this god is all perfect, without sin and hence without the ability to lie, it cannot be deceitful, therefore it cannot choose to intervene in the places that it knows humankind will never look. It must act according to its own nature, with integrity and consistency. At best this means it can only be a deist type god, with no intervention on material existence since the creation event (of which there is no evidence of). It could pass judgement on souls making it to the afterlife (because we can't test for this) but being judged on goals which have not been made clear and of which we have not received any personal feedback along the way as to whether we are on track or not, this judgement hardly seems just. The judgement and sentence of eternal bliss or damnation for a pilot flying blind during a relative minute period of one's eternal existence certainly seems absurd especially given that the "divinely inspired' scriptures are open to human interpretation.

Anyway, I'll stop now in case a theist may wish to debate some of what I am saying here, and debate is against the rules in the Introductions section making this a bit unfair on them.

Tell us a bit more about yourself, what are your hobbies, your interests, your passions?
How do you spend your week-ends, do you travel?

[Too Few Lions]

welcome to the forum Asherah, we're all very friendly here. I'm glad you're finding happiness after apostasy (it's such a lovely word!) Thankfully I've never believed in any gods, so haven't had to deal with the changes you've gone through. You can have just as meaningful a life without believing in deities, and generally also a far more enjoyable one, I hope you find that's the case for you too.

btw nice username, one time possible consort of Yahweh and wooden pole most hated by his priests. The choice of username suggests you're pretty much through with that old charlatan Yahweh!

[Anti-antidisestablishmentarianism]

Welcome to the forum! Nobody here is rude unless they are just being humorous.  I had the same problem on a different forum, but I have seen nothing except nice people on here 

[Traveler]

Hello and welcome aboard! I've never believed in god, but can appreciate where you're at, even if only from hearing other's stories. They're all right that this is a friendly board, and I hope you enjoy it here.

[Asherah]

Actually, the powers that be, that define Christianity, or at least lead the common interpretations are very careful to keep their teachings on a conceptual level (or metaphysical if you prefer).

The insistance on the necessity for faith and belief has some very interesting consequences.
This assures that there will never be any proof or evidence for god. That answered prayer cannot manifest in anyway measurable. If your prayed for regrowth of a severed limb was answered for example, this could be construed as proof of god, especially as limb regrowth simply doesn't happen in humans, certainly not without prayer and if it did happen but only to (Catholics or SDA or Muslims or Hindus) you name it, then we would know 1. that there was a god powerful enough to hear prayer and 2 powerful enough to answer limb regrowth prayer. But let's say that prayer falls within the domain of normal natural events e.g. cancer remission, well if prayer did work then statistically we would see that (Catholics or SDA or Muslims or Hindus) you name it are more likely to go into cancer remission that atheists. But because this is statistically testable then it breaks the premise  (necessity for faith and belief). Hence answered prayer cannot be anything tangible.
So what is left?
A person could say "I prayed to god to give me the strength to get through the struggles of having a loved one die of cancer".
This could "conceptually" be believed to be answered. We can't measure the "strength" before the prayer and the "strength" after the prayer. I am sure if we argued that the "strength" would improve the chances of not developing depression, then we measured the depression rates, which would show that there is no advantage, the prayer believers would simply state that it is not that kind of strength.

Wow. I couldn't have said it better. Genius!

Thanks Asherah,

Now taking this a step further.

Not only can the all perfect, all powerful god not perform sinful actions such as lie, cheat, steal, etc, but due to the necessity to judge people on their faith and belief this means the all perfect, all powerful god cannot perform tangible miracles. It cannot influence the material world in a way that is inconsistent with the rules of nature otherwise as our scientists more accurately model nature with their documented and tested laws of physics we would notice anomalies proving intelligent intervention. If this god is all perfect, without sin and hence without the ability to lie, it cannot be deceitful, therefore it cannot choose to intervene in the places that it knows humankind will never look. It must act according to its own nature, with integrity and consistency. At best this means it can only be a deist type god, with no intervention on material existence since the creation event (of which there is no evidence of). It could pass judgement on souls making it to the afterlife (because we can't test for this) but being judged on goals which have not been made clear and of which we have not received any personal feedback along the way as to whether we are on track or not, this judgement hardly seems just. The judgement and sentence of eternal bliss or damnation for a pilot flying blind during a relative minute period of one's eternal existence certainly seems absurd especially given that the "divinely inspired' scriptures are open to human interpretation.

Anyway, I'll stop now in case a theist may wish to debate some of what I am saying here, and debate is against the rules in the Introductions section making this a bit unfair on them.

Tell us a bit more about yourself, what are your hobbies, your interests, your passions?
How do you spend your week-ends, do you travel?

I want to post our discussion on a new thread in the religion section so that others can comment/debate, but I don't have a tab for a new thread under the religion forum. Any ideas?

I'm a stay-at-home mom and in my free time I play guitar/sing (I like jazz, but my kids think jazz is boring and they want me to play kid songs . I'm working up my repertoire so I can go pro within the next year or so. I'm also an amateur photographer. Weekends are usually spent around the house with the kids/husband or out with friends. Sometimes I travel with my husband. He's in the military, so we go to weekend events sometimes. And, we like to go hiking and fishing.

[Asherah]

btw nice username, one time possible consort of Yahweh and wooden pole most hated by his priests. The choice of username suggests you're pretty much through with that old charlatan Yahweh!

Thanks! I felt like being rebellious....When I was a Christian I would've been worried that curses would rain down on me for such an act of defiance.

[Traveler]

You need to have a certain number of posts before you can post in the rest of the forum. I think its 20ish.

[Tank]

You need to have a certain number of posts before you can post in the rest of the forum. I think its 20ish.

That's right, it's 10, then you can post anywhere.

[Asherah]

You need to have a certain number of posts before you can post in the rest of the forum. I think its 20ish.

Ah, okay. I'll work on that. Thanks!

[Traveler]

Only four more to go!!!

[Asherah]

Now three more!! 

[Stevil]

I'm a stay-at-home mom and in my free time I play guitar/sing (I like jazz, but my kids think jazz is boring and they want me to play kid songs . I'm working up my repertoire so I can go pro within the next year or so.

I play guitar as well. Just a hobby though and now with young children I am finding it very difficult to find the time to pick up my guitar.
I mostly like heavy metal, because it is very guitar oriented music, I just love guitars. Never really got into Jazz, but I do find the Jazz standard in the Guitar Techniques magazine extremely difficult to play.

I'm also an amateur photographer.

We have some photography enthusiasts here http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=7607.0. Tank is exceptionally good at Macro photography. McQ is a professional and his photos are spectacular. AnimatedDirt did some crazy other worldly stuff and MariaEvi has done some fantastic HDR stuff. Lots of others have contributed as well.

Weekends are usually spent around the house with the kids/husband or out with friends. Sometimes I travel with my husband. He's in the military, so we go to weekend events sometimes. And, we like to go hiking and fishing.

Hmmm, hiking and fishing, you would love NZ!

[Asherah]

I'm a stay-at-home mom and in my free time I play guitar/sing (I like jazz, but my kids think jazz is boring and they want me to play kid songs . I'm working up my repertoire so I can go pro within the next year or so.

I play guitar as well. Just a hobby though and now with young children I am finding it very difficult to find the time to pick up my guitar.
I mostly like heavy metal, because it is very guitar oriented music, I just love guitars. Never really got into Jazz, but I do find the Jazz standard in the Guitar Techniques magazine extremely difficult to play.

I'm also an amateur photographer.

We have some photography enthusiasts here http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=7607.0. Tank is exceptionally good at Macro photography. McQ is a professional and his photos are spectacular. AnimatedDirt did some crazy other worldly stuff and MariaEvi has done some fantastic HDR stuff. Lots of others have contributed as well.

Weekends are usually spent around the house with the kids/husband or out with friends. Sometimes I travel with my husband. He's in the military, so we go to weekend events sometimes. And, we like to go hiking and fishing.

Hmmm, hiking and fishing, you would love NZ!

Yea, it's definitely hard to pick up the guitar after having kids. I usually only play the stuff I like after the kids go to bed. That's cool that you are into metal. My husband plays in a metal band and that's how I started appreciating that kind of music. Although, I've never had an interest in playing it. My husband and I rarely play together because our taste in music is so different.

Wow, Tank is really good!! I've never done any macro photography. I take photos of my kids, of course  And, other people's kids if I can.

Oooo, NZ would be amazing!

[Stevil]

Yea, it's definitely hard to pick up the guitar after having kids. I usually only play the stuff I like after the kids go to bed. That's cool that you are into metal. My husband plays in a metal band and that's how I started appreciating that kind of music. Although, I've never had an interest in playing it. My husband and I rarely play together because our taste in music is so different.

There is a lot of value in going into other genres, they all teach you different aspects about music.
Metal is about energy and can often have complex structures, time signature changes, intros, outros, instrumental passages, bridges, prechorus etc. Kinda complex like classical but with much more energy.
Jazz is well known for improvisation, and jumping around the scales rather than staying in one place, Jazz is especially difficult to keep time, almost seems free time.
In both genres the instrumentalists are very accomplished, not simply there as accompaniment to the vocalist and vocal melody.

Here's a song I like that is both jazz and metal Crazy Cat. It's a bit cheesy though.
Here's another I just looked up, seems closer to jazz than metal, but sounds interesting Karcius - Combustion