Veridican Creed of Salvation

[Egor]

The irony in this thread is overwhelming. Religion is based on the belief in absolute truth, yet here we have the way to salvation put up to a vote? This  is how the whole thing got started in the first place:

"Hey guys, check out my bitchin' poetry on god and life and stuff - do you think it's about right?"

"Way deep, bro! You should totally get this shit published. You'd be, like, famous."

Either this thread is proselytizing, or you lack conviction in your beliefs. Which is it?

You don't have to agree it's true. In fact, that's the idea. Because you will think it's BS and eagerly point out why, I will get a perspective on it that is critical and forces me to think and defend it. It's not proselytizing. I don't expect atheists to believe this creed.

[Egor]

I'll be kind, and say maybe he lacks conviction. Of the 38,000 or so Christian denominations out there today, I'd say all 38,000 of them probably started off with "OK, I've got an idea. How in the hell do I get this thing off the ground?"

I think that's true.

That being said, isn't starting your own brand of Christianity essentially saying none of the other variations are good enough for you?

I'm not a Christian. You may think I am, but I assure you the Christians won't. There are two groups I belong to. When The Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ hits Amazon in a couple of weeks, I will go in there to talk about Veridicanism and I will be almost immediately banned.

I'd wager most people starting their own denomination, even if it's just a church of one, lack conviction/faith/confidence/trust in whatever it is they find the need to branch off from, at least. *shrug*

Well, yes, I am not sure that Veridicanism is going the right direction. I'm still in the formation of the public version of it--if that's what you mean. But I'm sure of the stuff that is on my website at this time (veridican.com)

To the OP: if you're looking for feedback, I'd just say that based on the creed alone, there really aren't many significant differences between what you've got there, and what the Bible has to say. Congrats on a jazzed up logo, though.  

I agree. However, it's not Christian. Even most Christians might not recognize that at first, but the very first line is not even describing the same God that is generally believed in within Christendom. In fact, its a version far more similar to Hinduism's Brahman. What Christians will mainly object to is that Veridicans don't use the Bible but use a so-called inspired dirivative of it. The respect for Christ may be the same, but most don't believe that they become one with Christ when they are born again (i.e., that they no longer exist spiritually, but rather have merged with the spirit of Christ). And then they hold a dualistic notion of God, not a monistic one.

[Egor]

i don't have an opinion on the content of the creed because i think it's all pointless.

But...when you use the word "Earth" it is capitalized as a proper noun...the exception is when you refer to earth in the context of meaning ground/soil rather than the whole planet.

Thank you. Yes, I typed that from my head here at work. At home I cut and pasted the actual prayer from the Veridican Gospel text.

[Dobermonster]

One thing I've never quite understood about The Lord's Prayer is the line, "Lead us not into temptation". Why do we have to pray that God will not lead us astray? Why does God want to misdirect us?

[Amicale]

One thing I've never quite understood about The Lord's Prayer is the line, "Lead us not into temptation". Why do we have to pray that God will not lead us astray? Why does God want to misdirect us?

In James 1 verses 2 and 3, it says "My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials (peirasmos), knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." The word peirasmos, the original greek, means either temptation or trial. So basically, the idea is that even though temptations or trials test the faith of a Christian and teach them patience, most people would just as soon ask God not to give them those kinds of trials, even if they'd maybe strengthen faith or give them patience. They'd rather ask God to deliver them from evil, which is the next line of the prayer. *shrug* I always took it to mean that someone praying it would sooner not go through a bunch of really rough stuff in order to be made stronger. Can't say I blame anyone who believes in God for asking him to spare them that, lol.

Sigh, you can take the girl out of the religion, but you apparently can't take the years of Bible study out of the girl...

At least, the word Asmo is in the word peirasmos, which means trial or temptation. Our Asmo ought to be pleased.

[Dobermonster]

One thing I've never quite understood about The Lord's Prayer is the line, "Lead us not into temptation". Why do we have to pray that God will not lead us astray? Why does God want to misdirect us?

In James 1 verses 2 and 3, it says "My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials (peirasmos), knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." The word peirasmos, the original greek, means either temptation or trial. So basically, the idea is that even though temptations or trials test the faith of a Christian and teach them patience, most people would just as soon ask God not to give them those kinds of trials, even if they'd maybe strengthen faith or give them patience. They'd rather ask God to deliver them from evil, which is the next line of the prayer. *shrug* I always took it to mean that someone praying it would sooner not go through a bunch of really rough stuff in order to be made stronger. Can't say I blame anyone who believes in God for asking him to spare them that, lol.

Sigh, you can take the girl out of the religion, but you apparently can't take the years of Bible study out of the girl...

At least, the word Asmo is in the word peirasmos, which means trial or temptation. Our Asmo ought to be pleased.

I get that side of it, but I thought the traditional view was that Satan tempts us (or just our sinful nature), not that temptation is something we are deliberately lead into by God.

[Amicale]

One thing I've never quite understood about The Lord's Prayer is the line, "Lead us not into temptation". Why do we have to pray that God will not lead us astray? Why does God want to misdirect us?

In James 1 verses 2 and 3, it says "My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials (peirasmos), knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." The word peirasmos, the original greek, means either temptation or trial. So basically, the idea is that even though temptations or trials test the faith of a Christian and teach them patience, most people would just as soon ask God not to give them those kinds of trials, even if they'd maybe strengthen faith or give them patience. They'd rather ask God to deliver them from evil, which is the next line of the prayer. *shrug* I always took it to mean that someone praying it would sooner not go through a bunch of really rough stuff in order to be made stronger. Can't say I blame anyone who believes in God for asking him to spare them that, lol.

Sigh, you can take the girl out of the religion, but you apparently can't take the years of Bible study out of the girl...

At least, the word Asmo is in the word peirasmos, which means trial or temptation. Our Asmo ought to be pleased.

I get that side of it, but I thought the traditional view was that Satan tempts us (or just our sinful nature), not that temptation is something we are deliberately lead into by God.

Yeah, that part confuses me, too. Then again, this is the same God who messed with Job's life, family, etc over a bet with Satan. *shrug* 

[Egor]

One thing I've never quite understood about The Lord's Prayer is the line, "Lead us not into temptation". Why do we have to pray that God will not lead us astray? Why does God want to misdirect us?

You'll never know this as an atheist, and you'd never believe it as a Christian, but the revelation of God we get from Jesus Christ is almost nothing like the revelation of God the Christian Church believes in.

[Dobermonster]

One thing I've never quite understood about The Lord's Prayer is the line, "Lead us not into temptation". Why do we have to pray that God will not lead us astray? Why does God want to misdirect us?

You'll never know this as an atheist, and you'd never believe it as a Christian, but the revelation of God we get from Jesus Christ is almost nothing like the revelation of God the Christian Church believes in.

I was a Christian for most of my young life. I know how it is. And I'm not sure if that was meant as an answer to those questions, but it fell short.

[Egor]

One thing I've never quite understood about The Lord's Prayer is the line, "Lead us not into temptation". Why do we have to pray that God will not lead us astray? Why does God want to misdirect us?

You'll never know this as an atheist, and you'd never believe it as a Christian, but the revelation of God we get from Jesus Christ is almost nothing like the revelation of God the Christian Church believes in.

I was a Christian for most of my young life. I know how it is. And I'm not sure if that was meant as an answer to those questions, but it fell short.

Sorry your disappointed. Answering questions directly is almost useless. If a person doesn't feel that they found the answer, they will never accept it. I'd rather lead you toward the answer than simply state it to you.

[McQ]

If you can unilaterally end my membership, then do whatever you feel you have to do. You pop up and I guess you feel the need for power or to be bowed down to, maybe some hommage thrown your way, but I'm not the one to do that. I'm in your forum at your whim which is controlled by the providence of God. I'm not breaking any rules. Even you admit that right there in #1 and #2.

My goal is not to end your membership with this forum, and I would not feel compelled to do so without the consent of the moderating staff, anyway. Also, you guessed wrong. I have no need to feel those things. I'm doing my job as a moderator to prevent trolls, spammers, and disruptive behavior to a minimum. I don't need to explain myself further on this and you have been warned. Don't over assume such nonsense.

It also shows that you're a liar, since you've yet to retract the lies from your December 29 post, which I called you out on in this forum. http://thebelieversrevolt.blogspot.com/2011/12/happy-atheist-forum-cant-hang.html

Oh, puhleez. That is so two-months ago. As for your opinion of me; I seriously doubt that's ever going to change. As to me being a fraud. I can't even figure out what you're talking about. Fraud in what way?

Two months ago, yes. It shows that your stance hasn't changed since then, and that your pretended interest in having rational discourse with atheists is a lie. You lied about being banned here, and the reason why, you conflated your argument, and you did not retract it when it was shown you had done so. Fraud. Clear enough now?

You want honest opinions from members here, then start by being honest yourself. We aren't the ones who have consistently lied and obfuscated; you are.

Get your act together Edward, and start being up front. My guess is that all you want to do is build up all of the criticisms that we have against your religion so that you can use them as fodder for your forum and book. That's fine, because we are more than happy to provide criticism of it. Just admit that's all you want to begin with. Keep trying to bullshit your way through and you'll find it rough going.

Hmmm. Well, I am trying to get your criticisms so I can fix problems in my own thinking, and sure, I'm dedicated to ending the atheistic influence in society, so I guess that is kind of an information gathering tactic. But I didn't think that was covert in any way. I think most people know where I stand on atheism.

In this case, however, I wanted this creed to be torn to shreds by atheists so that before I chisel it in stone, I have had to think through it very carefully. It is the salvation creed of Veridicanism, so it has to be right. And if I really want undiluted caustic opinions, I have to address atheists, not Christians. Christians would have just glossed over it. I posted it here for discussion, because Raving Atheists, wouldn't have even talked about it, they would have just made vulgar references about me. I have already been in Thinking Atheist for a bit, and I'm trying to let my posts in there cool off, and they don't have a dedicated "religion" board. You guys are fairly moderate and have a religion board. I could have posted it in CFI, I suppose. But again, they don't have a religion board.

That's as honest as I think I can be.

Good. If this is true, then it will show over time, and my opinion will change, Edward. I don't care if you believe that or not, but that's the way it is.

Now, convince me you're being genuine in your purpose here and there's no problem. It's that easy.

[Dobermonster]

One thing I've never quite understood about The Lord's Prayer is the line, "Lead us not into temptation". Why do we have to pray that God will not lead us astray? Why does God want to misdirect us?

You'll never know this as an atheist, and you'd never believe it as a Christian, but the revelation of God we get from Jesus Christ is almost nothing like the revelation of God the Christian Church believes in.

I was a Christian for most of my young life. I know how it is. And I'm not sure if that was meant as an answer to those questions, but it fell short.

Sorry your disappointed. Answering questions directly is almost useless. If a person doesn't feel that they found the answer, they will never accept it. I'd rather lead you toward the answer than simply state it to you.

There's the gaping abyss between the theist and the atheist - on this side, we don't "feel" our way to answers. We think them. We study them. We look for rationality. It's very simple - either you have an answer, or you don't. If you don't, you may speculate on what the answer might be. At least then we could discuss your hypothesis and determine whether it holds water.

[Tom62]

I think that everyone has "gut" feelings that some answers might sound more plausible or reasonable than others. Even if we don't have all the answers, we sure have opinions about them. The only difference is that we don't take the supernatural in consideration as an answer to these questions.

[Too Few Lions]

I think it's as full of crap as the original source material.

+1 Obviously we can help with the grammar and structure, and I hope we have. As for the content, stuff like gods, sin, redemption and eternal life are just mythological bullshit to an atheist.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

I think this is your biggest problem Egor, I don't see what's new in Veridicanism. It's just Christianity under another name, with a few minor changes based on your personal beliefs. A vanity project.

[Guardian85]

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

I think this is your biggest problem Egor, I don't see what's new in Veridicanism. It's just Christianity under another name, with a few minor changes based on your personal beliefs. A vanity project.

What he said.