Responsible Breeding - Socially authorised procreation

[DeterminedJuliet]

You lost me at "blah, blah, blah...freedom"

[Ali]

What are we talking about here?  Forced sterilization for the poor?  No thanks.  I do think that people should be financially sound before having kids, but I don't think that society or government has a right to enforce that.  I actually find the idea of a government that can choose who is worthy of "breeding" horrific.  And at least in my country, there would also be a bit of eugenics at play there, since minorities have a higher rate of poverty than caucasions in most areas.  No.  No no no.   

I agree. The possibility for abuse and the kind of horrible things that can be carried out under it, is too great to risk it.

Sterilisation? No. Just an incentivised encouragement to think twice about reproducing if it cannot be paid for. That's capitalism for ya! Dont forget that in democratic countries the 'government' IS the people. Society decides what the laws are. Noone but you and your fellow countrymen are taking these decisions. If the consensus is a mitigation of rights for the greater good then that's what will happen.

And the alternative, given that people cannot be trusted to be responsible with their breeding? An ever increasing population with an ever dwindling share of limited financial resources. I'm not happy to let this continue. Drastic times call for drastic action. Shall we sit back and let it continue because the cure might infringe an individuals' rights? Boo-f**king-hoo! Bleeding heart, blah, blah... rights, blah, blah... freedom, blah, blah.

Don't know about you guys, but my mission on this planet is NOT to fill it with people to the detriment of the lives of those of us that currently live on it. That's creating misery for all... and for what purpose? Take a look around, what's really gonna change without positive action on this issue and a bullet-biting concession to rights in one form or another?

We're between a rock and a hard place for sure. You let your bleeding hearts preserve individual freedoms if you wish, I'd rather opt for a compromise that works for society as a whole. Yes, with potential to create a society with limited freedoms (if one chooses to play a part in society at all - work, pay taxes, use public services etc...), but the alternative is certainly more bleak.

What incentivization are we talking about here?  I can't think of a practical method that doesn't ulitmately involve either forced sterilization, forced abortions, or letting people starve to death.  Let's say that as a society we get together and say "The poor can't have children until they meet X standard."  How do we enforce that?  Either we pre-emptively sterilize people, we require abortions for people who get pregnant but don't make X amount of money, or we decide that we're going to cut off people's funding if they have children, which leads to more people starving.   You can call me any name you like, but I can't agree with any of those terms.  Food is not a priviledge.  Children are not a priviledge.  We don't have the right to vote on whois good enough to procreate, or who is good enough to eat.  Before we start talking about only letting certain people procreate, let's address icome equality.  When 1% of the people in this world own 40% of the world's wealth and resources, it can hardly be a surprise that many people will be impoverished.  Let's fix that first, if we're resorting to desparate measures.

[Siz]

Boo-f**king-hoo! Bleeding heart, blah, blah... rights, blah, blah... freedom, blah, blah.

If you can't express your views maturely why should any of us take your opinion seriously?

Merely an expression of the blinkered observation to personal rights in the face of overwhelming need to fix a problem.

Um...no..it was you being immature and uncivil.  Re-read the forum rules and follow them...since a nudge didn't work this is an official rules reminder.

Oooh, how exiting!

OK, OK. Noted. No offence meant.

[Sweetdeath]

While I am against programs such as welfare and wic, I don't think the gov should be involved in any forced abortions.

I do wish poverty couples would think before  having a kid if they aren't financially prepared.   Do some research or something...

Free condoms are provided by planned parenting, or even some shops  (like salons and tattoo shops in my area) give out nyc condoms.

[Dobermonster]

Again, I would say the solution is a cultural shift when it comes to pairing off adults to procreate. This is already sort of happening - more people are delaying marriage and concentrating on their careers before considering having children. Although I don't think there's anything wrong with the people who wanted to get their family started early on, or just had a surprise, I think the most important factor (that doesn't inhibit rights) in this is encouraging teens and young adults to spend more time becoming independent and exploring their world before settling down. Right now, especially for women, there is an emphasis placed on forming your own nuclear family. This has become the priority, and I don't think it should be. If it is for one person, that's great, but why push it as the end-all, be-all of true success? Maybe if we made it a lower priority in our social scheme, a natural decline in population growth will follow? Just my thoughts.

Government mandated birth control or sterilization is an absolute no-no. I can't think of a circumstance where I would even go, "Eh, ok, mayybe". But I think human rights are terribly important.

[Siz]

What incentivization are we talking about here?  I can't think of a practical method that doesn't ulitmately involve either forced sterilization, forced abortions, or letting people starve to death.  Let's say that as a society we get together and say "The poor can't have children until they meet X standard."  How do we enforce that?  Either we pre-emptively sterilize people, we require abortions for people who get pregnant but don't make X amount of money, or we decide that we're going to cut off people's funding if they have children, which leads to more people starving.   You can call me any name you like, but I can't agree with any of those terms.  Food is not a priviledge.  Children are not a priviledge.  We don't have the right to vote on whois good enough to procreate, or who is good enough to eat.  Before we start talking about only letting certain people procreate, let's address icome equality.  When 1% of the people in this world own 40% of the world's wealth and resources, it can hardly be a surprise that many people will be impoverished.  Let's fix that first, if we're resorting to desparate measures.

Let's not blame the rich for the laziness of the welfare-bolstered poor.

Children are not a privilege? Maybe this is the crux of our disagreement. That's the bottom line!

[Dobermonster]

What incentivization are we talking about here?  I can't think of a practical method that doesn't ulitmately involve either forced sterilization, forced abortions, or letting people starve to death.  Let's say that as a society we get together and say "The poor can't have children until they meet X standard."  How do we enforce that?  Either we pre-emptively sterilize people, we require abortions for people who get pregnant but don't make X amount of money, or we decide that we're going to cut off people's funding if they have children, which leads to more people starving.   You can call me any name you like, but I can't agree with any of those terms.  Food is not a priviledge.  Children are not a priviledge.  We don't have the right to vote on whois good enough to procreate, or who is good enough to eat.  Before we start talking about only letting certain people procreate, let's address icome equality.  When 1% of the people in this world own 40% of the world's wealth and resources, it can hardly be a surprise that many people will be impoverished.  Let's fix that first, if we're resorting to desparate measures.

Let's not blame the rich for the laziness of the welfare-bolstered poor.

Children are not a privilege? Maybe this is the crux of our disagreement. That's the bottom line!

Children are not a privilege. What makes you think they are?

[Sweetdeath]

Again, I would say the solution is a cultural shift when it comes to pairing off adults to procreate. This is already sort of happening - more people are delaying marriage and concentrating on their careers before considering having children. Although I don't think there's anything wrong with the people who wanted to get their family started early on, or just had a surprise, I think the most important factor (that doesn't inhibit rights) in this is encouraging teens and young adults to spend more time becoming independent and exploring their world before settling down. Right now, especially for women, there is an emphasis placed on forming your own nuclear family. This has become the priority, and I don't think it should be. If it is for one person, that's great, but why push it as the end-all, be-all of true success? Maybe if we made it a lower priority in our social scheme, a natural decline in population growth will follow? Just my thoughts.

Government mandated birth control or sterilization is an absolute no-no. I can't think of a circumstance where I would even go, "Eh, ok, mayybe". But I think human rights are terribly important.

More and more people ofthis generation are waiting to their late 30's, early 40's to have a child and I seriously applaud that.
I'm 26 and I am still with a lot on my plate. College, getting an apt, getting a good bank card. I love my life.
Having a child is giving up a lot. I am not the type of person for that.
I respect people who want a child, cuz you will raise them for decades.
I just enjoy my free time, income , sanity, and freedom way too much.

[Ali]

What incentivization are we talking about here?  I can't think of a practical method that doesn't ulitmately involve either forced sterilization, forced abortions, or letting people starve to death.  Let's say that as a society we get together and say "The poor can't have children until they meet X standard."  How do we enforce that?  Either we pre-emptively sterilize people, we require abortions for people who get pregnant but don't make X amount of money, or we decide that we're going to cut off people's funding if they have children, which leads to more people starving.   You can call me any name you like, but I can't agree with any of those terms.  Food is not a priviledge.  Children are not a priviledge.  We don't have the right to vote on whois good enough to procreate, or who is good enough to eat.  Before we start talking about only letting certain people procreate, let's address icome equality.  When 1% of the people in this world own 40% of the world's wealth and resources, it can hardly be a surprise that many people will be impoverished.  Let's fix that first, if we're resorting to desparate measures.

Let's not blame the rich for the laziness of the welfare-bolstered poor.

Children are not a privilege? Maybe this is the crux of our disagreement. That's the bottom line!

Perhaps another part of our disagreement is that I'm not convinced that being poor automatically = being lazy, or that anyone needs to be as rich as the top 1% are.  I'm not a communist or anything, but the wage gap, at least in my country, is pretty inexcusable.  Again, until we focus on that, I'm not prepared to call people who need help "lazy" out of hand or make laws about whether or not they can procreate.  In my country you can easily work a full time job and still be well below the poverty line.   Our minimum wage is not a living wage, and that's even assuming that you are lucky enough to have a job whne you want one.

[Siz]

What incentivization are we talking about here?  I can't think of a practical method that doesn't ulitmately involve either forced sterilization, forced abortions, or letting people starve to death.  Let's say that as a society we get together and say "The poor can't have children until they meet X standard."  How do we enforce that?  Either we pre-emptively sterilize people, we require abortions for people who get pregnant but don't make X amount of money, or we decide that we're going to cut off people's funding if they have children, which leads to more people starving.   You can call me any name you like, but I can't agree with any of those terms.  Food is not a priviledge.  Children are not a priviledge.  We don't have the right to vote on whois good enough to procreate, or who is good enough to eat.  Before we start talking about only letting certain people procreate, let's address icome equality.  When 1% of the people in this world own 40% of the world's wealth and resources, it can hardly be a surprise that many people will be impoverished.  Let's fix that first, if we're resorting to desparate measures.

Let's not blame the rich for the laziness of the welfare-bolstered poor.

Children are not a privilege? Maybe this is the crux of our disagreement. That's the bottom line!

Children are not a privilege. What makes you think they are?

Is there anything else to which we have a right which it would not be acceptable to rescind if proven to be injurious in any way to other people?

I, and millions of other hardworking, tax-paying citizens are most certainly injured by irresponsible reproduction.

Where's the social justice there?

[Whitney]

Perhaps another part of our disagreement is that I'm not convinced that being poor automatically = being lazy,

On the previous page I posted a graph that proved that most of those below poverty level (same people who qualify for welfare) have jobs.  They are referred to as the working poor and the US has a lot of them..I'd be interested to see what percentage of them work at walmart for 39 hours a week.

[Ali]

What incentivization are we talking about here?  I can't think of a practical method that doesn't ulitmately involve either forced sterilization, forced abortions, or letting people starve to death.  Let's say that as a society we get together and say "The poor can't have children until they meet X standard."  How do we enforce that?  Either we pre-emptively sterilize people, we require abortions for people who get pregnant but don't make X amount of money, or we decide that we're going to cut off people's funding if they have children, which leads to more people starving.   You can call me any name you like, but I can't agree with any of those terms.  Food is not a priviledge.  Children are not a priviledge.  We don't have the right to vote on whois good enough to procreate, or who is good enough to eat.  Before we start talking about only letting certain people procreate, let's address icome equality.  When 1% of the people in this world own 40% of the world's wealth and resources, it can hardly be a surprise that many people will be impoverished.  Let's fix that first, if we're resorting to desparate measures.

Let's not blame the rich for the laziness of the welfare-bolstered poor.

Children are not a privilege? Maybe this is the crux of our disagreement. That's the bottom line!

Children are not a privilege. What makes you think they are?

Is there anything else to which we have a right which it would not be acceptable to rescind if proven to be injurious in any way to other people?

I, and millions of other hardworking, tax-paying citizens are most certainly injured by irresponsible reproduction.

Where's the social justice there?

Well for that matter, why do the poor even have a right to live, when their lives are a drain on us hard working tax payers?  Stupid poor.  We should eat them.

[Siz]

What incentivization are we talking about here?  I can't think of a practical method that doesn't ulitmately involve either forced sterilization, forced abortions, or letting people starve to death.  Let's say that as a society we get together and say "The poor can't have children until they meet X standard."  How do we enforce that?  Either we pre-emptively sterilize people, we require abortions for people who get pregnant but don't make X amount of money, or we decide that we're going to cut off people's funding if they have children, which leads to more people starving.   You can call me any name you like, but I can't agree with any of those terms.  Food is not a priviledge.  Children are not a priviledge.  We don't have the right to vote on whois good enough to procreate, or who is good enough to eat.  Before we start talking about only letting certain people procreate, let's address icome equality.  When 1% of the people in this world own 40% of the world's wealth and resources, it can hardly be a surprise that many people will be impoverished.  Let's fix that first, if we're resorting to desparate measures.

Let's not blame the rich for the laziness of the welfare-bolstered poor.

Children are not a privilege? Maybe this is the crux of our disagreement. That's the bottom line!

Perhaps another part of our disagreement is that I'm not convinced that being poor automatically = being lazy, or that anyone needs to be as rich as the top 1% are.  I'm not a communist or anything, but the wage gap, at least in my country, is pretty inexcusable.  Again, until we focus on that, I'm not prepared to call people who need help "lazy" out of hand or make laws about whether or not they can procreate.  In my country you can easily work a full time job and still be well below the poverty line.   Our minimum wage is not a living wage, and that's even assuming that you are lucky enough to have a job whne you want one.

Please don't insult both of us by voicing an assumption that I mean that all poor people are lazy.

It is the laziness of a large number of people who are resultingly poor that is the cause of the poverty of others more deserving of financial help.

Government policy on welfare is mainly to blame for allowing the culture of something-for-nothing to prevail in the UK. Secondly it is parents on welfare raising children to believe that something-for-nothing is acceptable. And hence we have a generation of lazy scroungers who haven't even been shown what working means, let alone have the willingness or financial motivation to partake.

[Davin]

Edit: Hrm... never mind. I'll leave this alone.

[Siz]

Well for that matter, why do the poor even have a right to live, when their lives are a drain on us hard working tax payers?  Stupid poor.  We should eat them.

...Or maybe just rescind their right to our financial resources that I'd rather see going to the working-poor (to which Whitney refers) or the otherwise genuine needy.

Facetiousness is not required.