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When you suspect someone is having serious issues with their faith. (need input)

Started by ThinkAnarchy, January 29, 2012, 11:48:31 PM

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ThinkAnarchy

I tend to be long winded, so I will do my best to keep this to the pertinent details.

A bit of back story

I have known the girl, who I will call Clair, for about 5 years now. She is my fiances best friend, but the two of us have never been to keen on each other. She has been a Catholic all her life, however she doesn't really believe in Catholicism anymore, but does still believe in god.

The other night

She came over the other night and the subject of god, atheism, etc. came up. I first had to clear up a misconception about atheism she had, which was that all atheists "know" there is no god. She was trying to explain how agnostics are so much better than atheists, which I in-turn, had to explain the minute difference between a self described atheist and agnostic. Essentially that agnostics say "I don't know" and atheists say, "there is no evidence so the default view is there is nothing there."

At some point in the conversation, Clair felt the need to defend her position despite my never attacking her about her views. This is essentially what she said.

QuoteI don't exactly believe in the Catholic Church or even Jesus. I believe the man existed, but perhaps he was just a prophet like the many others. But I'm sure there is a god because when I really needed something in my life he always delivered. It may not be the god the church teaches, but I'm sure he exists.

Again, the above is not an exact quote, but rather the gist of what she said.

Granted were drinking wine, but she got teary eyed while talking about it, and I could tell by that, coupled with the inflection of her voice, she is having serious issues with her beliefs.

I was going to politely point out what is so special about her; but not the starving and innocent African children or the rape victims in the Middle East (who can be stoned to death for being violated against their will by a man) but couldn't get a word in because the two women just kept going back and forth.

The topic eventually changed to new topics, but I also noticed she seemed eager to defend her beliefs. Towards the end I told them both to shut up so I could get a word in and she looked at me and said:
QuoteLet him say what he wants to say, I want to crush his arguments.
Again, this is paraphrased.

It's almost as if she assumes I get great pleasure in attacking other peoples beliefs, but all I ended up saying was something that affirmed one of their previous points against atheists that piss me off as well. Mainly the stupid attacks against Christmas trees during Christmas.

The reason I didn't push the conversation more is that she seems to really be on the fence and tact could do a whole lot to get her to open her mind.

As I have already said, she feels attacked when ever she talks about religion around me, but I would like to point out the folly in her logic in a respectable way. She is a complete bitch though, and she really doesn't like me, so I imagine anything I say will be taken as an attack. Before, due to the fact she was a bitch, I enjoyed these arguments because I always made her feel like an idiot by the end. There was always something I would ask that she couldn't logically answer; so she simply got angry. Admittedly, I enjoyed it because we don't like each other. 

However, the other night when I saw how much trouble she was having with her beliefs I felt bad for her.

I'm mainly looking for tips about how to discuss this with her in the hopes she doesn't get offended or angry the next time the subject comes up. While also hopefully helping her realize she probably doesn't actually believe in god anymore.

For the record, when I like a respect someone I don't have these problems. Conversations on this topic between me and Clair usually don't end very civilly though.

I hope this is all clear, if not let me know and I will try and clarify parts of this situation.










"He that displays too often his wife and his wallet is in danger of having both of them borrowed." -Ben Franklin

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -credited to Franklin, but not sure.

Amicale

ThinkAnarchy,

Thanks for sharing. Just a couple questions, I guess. First off... since your fiancee and 'Clair' are good friends, where does your fiancee stand in terms of her beliefs? Do you think Clair would be open to just having a private 'ladies chat' about her beliefs with your fiancee?

The reason I ask those questions is because if you and Clair have a history of bumping heads, then there's a chance that no matter what you say to try to set her at ease, she may not want to hear it just now, or may not trust what you say, even if you're being genuine. It may perhaps be best to let your fiancee and Clair talk through these issues first, alone, without you in the room. Clair may be more willing to 'open up' that way if your fiancee broaches the subject.

But if you'd rather try to get involved in the conversation yourself, a simple "Hey Clair, I know we disagree on a ton, and we haven't really hit it off, but I'm genuinely concerned about you because it seems like you might really be struggling with your faith. Just so you know, you can share what's on your mind without worrying about any snide remarks coming from me. I'd rather you be able to get this off your chest." -- or something like that, could maybe go a long way towards her sorting out her issues.

From what you told us, in my own experience being raised a Catholic, a 'scaleback' to Deism kinda bridged a big gap for me when I no longer believed in the Catholic faith or in Jesus, but I didn't want to give up theism entirely just yet. It was a long process for me, and I suspect it may be for Clair too. Someone trying to 'make you see' that your arguments are full of holes, or that you don't really believe them, sometimes makes someone cling all the tighter to those arguments in sheer self defence... especially when they don't have a very good relationship with the person asking them about those arguments.

So, yeah. Clair might just need some time, and some space, to work and talk her issues out. The biggest thing you can probably do right now is take a step back, and try not to argue her out of her shell -- if she wants to, she'll either ask questions or come out on her own. And really, we never know exactly WHY some people need the belief in a God. It could be a huge source of comfort or strength for her, so ripping off that bandaid can't happen until she decides it's time.

Sorry I didn't have anything more helpful than that, but maybe someone else here will. :)


"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb we are bound to others. By every crime and act of kindness we birth our future." - Cloud Atlas

"To live in the hearts of those we leave behind is to never die." -Carl Sagan

ThinkAnarchy

Quote from: Amicale on January 30, 2012, 12:46:22 AM
ThinkAnarchy,

Thanks for sharing. Just a couple questions, I guess. First off... since your fiancee and 'Clair' are good friends, where does your fiancee stand in terms of her beliefs? Do you think Clair would be open to just having a private 'ladies chat' about her beliefs with your fiancee?

My fiance classifies herself as an agnostic, but she really just doesn't care either way. She is indifferent to the idea of god and could care less about the entire topic.

Quote
The reason I ask those questions is because if you and Clair have a history of bumping heads, then there's a chance that no matter what you say to try to set her at ease, she may not want to hear it just now, or may not trust what you say, even if you're being genuine. It may perhaps be best to let your fiancee and Clair talk through these issues first, alone, without you in the room. Clair may be more willing to 'open up' that way if your fiancee broaches the subject.

Yes, but like I said above, my girl really just doesn't care about these issues. She honestly doesn't believe or disbelieve, she simply thinks the whole topic is unimportant and understands where both sides are coming from. That could be better or worse, I'm not sure.

Quote
But if you'd rather try to get involved in the conversation yourself, a simple "Hey Clair, I know we disagree on a ton, and we haven't really hit it off, but I'm genuinely concerned about you because it seems like you might really be struggling with your faith. Just so you know, you can share what's on your mind without worrying about any snide remarks coming from me. I'd rather you be able to get this off your chest." -- or something like that, could maybe go a long way towards her sorting out her issues.

It has never been a mission for me to piss her off. Sometimes the topic of religion just comes up for what ever reason and so I get involved in it. I agree with what you say, but I often say things that are construed as offensive when I'm simply stating an opinion.

Quote
From what you told us, in my own experience being raised a Catholic, a 'scaleback' to Deism kinda bridged a big gap for me when I no longer believed in the Catholic faith or in Jesus, but I didn't want to give up theism entirely just yet. It was a long process for me, and I suspect it may be for Clair too. Someone trying to 'make you see' that your arguments are full of holes, or that you don't really believe them, sometimes makes someone cling all the tighter to those arguments in sheer self defence... especially when they don't have a very good relationship with the person asking them about those arguments.

I have a similar experience and I as well transitioned to Deism prior to atheism. My ignorant attacks on atheism and atheist responses to them online, along with reading literature about god and atheism helped me accept what is likely real. The fact we don't particularly like each other is why I simply let the conversation die out the other day, but I really don't like to bite my tongue on issues, which I guess could be considered a personality quirk.

I know me and there is no way I can simply stay quiet, so I just need a way to come off as respecting. I am respective of believers, but the things I say don't always come out sounding respective.

Quote
So, yeah. Clair might just need some time, and some space, to work and talk her issues out. The biggest thing you can probably do right now is take a step back, and try not to argue her out of her shell -- if she wants to, she'll either ask questions or come out on her own. And really, we never know exactly WHY some people need the belief in a God. It could be a huge source of comfort or strength for her, so ripping off that bandaid can't happen until she decides it's time.

She did say something to that extent. She said she doesn't exactly believe in the Church anymore, but loves going to mass because it still makes her feel good, along with helping her be "spiritual." I guess I simply can't relate to the idea of religion being comforting. I know many people view it as such, but it simply doesn't make sense to me. I always felt oppressed by religion and it simply added unneeded stress as a child. I would lay in bed crying and begging god to help me quit masturbating because I didn't want to spend an eternity in hell.

I simply am unable to relate to those who view religion as a benefit to there life. This again is another issue I have when conversing with someone who does have a certain level of faith or respect for organized religion.

Quote
Sorry I didn't have anything more helpful than that, but maybe someone else here will. :)

Don't apologize, you helped me express some of my flaws when interacting with the religious type and contributed some valuable suggestions.

Thanks.  ;D
"He that displays too often his wife and his wallet is in danger of having both of them borrowed." -Ben Franklin

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -credited to Franklin, but not sure.

Gawen

Only thing I'll offer is taking that step back...and point her to a good book, preferably one you could loan her.
Bertrand Russel's - Why I am not a Christian
Dawkins - the God Delusion
Hitchens - God is not Good, How religion poisons everything
The essence of the mind is not in what it thinks, but how it thinks. Faith is the surrender of our mind; of reason and our skepticism to put all our trust or faith in someone or something that has no good evidence of itself. That is a sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith is not.
"When you fall, I will be there" - Floor

Whitney

I would probably have refused to discuss religion with her quite some time ago if she was being that way about it.  She's probably not going to care what you say anyway, as she obviously doesn't respect you either, so you might as well just leave her to figure it out herself.

Ali

Honestly, I think that you should let it be unless she specifically comes to you looking for info about atheism.  The reason I say that is because I don't think you can really "logic" someone out of their religion.  If you could, most people wouldn't be religious.  Religion is so deeply rooted in emotion, and I agree with Amicale that if you (especially since you are someone that she has butted heads with in the past) start in about why religion is illogical, it is likely to produce an emotional reaction that causes her to cling more tightly to it.  If she is already questioning her religion, I think that the odds are fair that she will continue to investigate and come to her own conclusions in a way that feels more "safe" to her. 

Wessik

Take my words with a grain of salt. The first thing I would do is say I'm sorry. Not for my own beliefs, but for the way I have acted towards her in the past. I would tell her that I don't want to debate religion with her, and I get no pleasure when she is angry. I would leave it at that.

She probably already has lost her faith, but she feels the need to defend it out of spite, and because she doesn't want to end up being a bitter, cocky, know it all atheist(how she probably percieves you). But if you simply drop the issue, then she's truly on her own with regards to her faith. This will probably terrify her, and she will probably try to pick religious arguments with you. But simply don't fight back. With nothing to defend, she'll probably go through a painful separation from her faith. As did all of us who were previously religious. But ultimately, it's up to her.
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