Thou Shalt Not Test The Lord

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Thomas was given sufficient proof for him - it was a personal revelation of and from Jesus. If you sincerely want a personal revelation from Jesus, ask him for it, just like Thomas did.  Put the ball in his court.

I did that back in '75. Still waiting on him. Far as I'm concerned, the test failed.

As long as a person has an open heart and mind, and the inquiry is sincere, that's about all that can be expected, I would think.

[Gawen]

Thomas was given sufficient proof for him - it was a personal revelation of and from Jesus. If you sincerely want a personal revelation from Jesus, ask him for it, just like Thomas did.  Put the ball in his court.

I did that back in '75. Still waiting on him. Far as I'm concerned, the test failed.

As long as a person has an open heart and mind, and the inquiry is sincere, that's about all that can be expected, I would think.

Well, at that time (1975), you cannot today disparage my sincerity or impugn my honour. Of course, I'm not saying you are, but you not being there and now relying on my testimonial of previous events, it's all you have to go on. There are a few conclusions to this:
God exists but did not hear me.
God exists, heard me, refused to answer.
God exists, heard me to let me remain an atheist.
God does not exist.

I prefer the last for obvious reasons.

[Sandra Craft]

God exists, heard me to let me remain an atheist.

I kind of like this one too.  It seems to me if a god exists, and it's a personal god and not just a force of nature or the collected physical laws of the universe, and it's intelligent and has cosmic plans, and is in charge of everything, then it seems doubt must be part of its plan and doubters are doing its work.  Like that quote I see so often: god made me an atheist, how dare you question his will?

Thomas was given sufficient proof for him - it was a personal revelation of and from Jesus. If you sincerely want a personal revelation from Jesus, ask him for it, just like Thomas did.  Put the ball in his court.

But that's just the point -- if that sort of thing actually happened wouldn't it pretty much eliminate ex-Xtian atheists?  I wouldn't be surprised if most or all of us in that group (and it's probably the majority of atheists) took that step as it is the most obvious one and found it was not a matter of "ask and ye shall receive".  Doubting Thomas remains a unique case, at least outside of insane asylums, and most likely a myth.

As long as a person has an open heart and mind, and the inquiry is sincere, that's about all that can be expected, I would think.

That's a cheap out, tho, isn't it Bruce?  "Do this, it works", "I did, it didn't", "Then you didn't do it right or enough or while standing on one foot."  Ignoring the possibility of "it doesn't work" is a little too easy.

[Asmodean]

Me, I can't remember ever having asked god, Jesus or even FSM for anything, except when mocking religion... Aside from the obvious, because there's nothing I really need that I can not get myself.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Thomas was given sufficient proof for him - it was a personal revelation of and from Jesus. If you sincerely want a personal revelation from Jesus, ask him for it, just like Thomas did.  Put the ball in his court.

I did that back in '75. Still waiting on him. Far as I'm concerned, the test failed.

As long as a person has an open heart and mind, and the inquiry is sincere, that's about all that can be expected, I would think.

Well, at that time (1975), you cannot today disparage my sincerity or impugn my honour. Of course, I'm not saying you are, but you not being there and now relying on my testimonial of previous events, it's all you have to go on. There are a few conclusions to this:
God exists but did not hear me.
God exists, heard me, refused to answer.
God exists, heard me to let me remain an atheist.
God does not exist.

I prefer the last for obvious reasons.

For purposes of consistency, I do not reject anyone's personal testimony of what happened to him/her, unless there are weighty factors that demand rejection. I find none of those in your case, so I accept your personal testimony of your experience.  Your experience is that God did not respond to you, and your conclusion is that he does not exist.  My experience is that he did respond to me, and that he does exist.  It all comes down to personal, subjective experience.  Of course, we are both still alive, so the final chapter has not been written.  Who knows - maybe you will become a theist or I will become an atheist.  If God did respond to you now, I would suspect that you would be so overwhelmed that you would become a believer. But that's just my speculation.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

As long as a person has an open heart and mind, and the inquiry is sincere, that's about all that can be expected, I would think.

That's a cheap out, tho, isn't it Bruce?  "Do this, it works", "I did, it didn't", "Then you didn't do it right or enough or while standing on one foot."  Ignoring the possibility of "it doesn't work" is a little too easy.

I accept the possibility that it doesn't work.  I only have my personal experience to go on. My point is that if someone like Gawen has opened up to the possibility, and nothing happened, there's really nothing else that can be expected.  The ball is in God's court.  If that was his experience, I can't discount it.

[Ali]

I asked, and didn't get anything.

I mentioned this in a rather teasing way to Egor, but one of my very dear friends is a UU minister.  She told me once that atheists are "God's thinking children" and defended me once to a rather crusading Christian who wanted to condemn me to hell.  According to her, we (non-believers) are precious to god as well.  I don't believe in god, but I do admit that what she said gives me some small comfort when I consider "What if?"  I guess if there is a god, I hope that it is the god that my friend worships that loves all of its/his/her children for their strengths.

[Thunder Road]

This has always bothered the hell out of me: the condition that you must have faith and can never expect God to show anything to you.

Which always made me wonder about the story of Doubting Thomas.  I know the moral is supposed to that doubting is wrong but look at what happens -- he doubts, as any reasonable person would, and he's given proof!  A very sensible solution to a reasonable problem.  If one person can be excused from having faith, from believing without proof, then what's the big deal for the rest of us?

Thomas was given sufficient proof for him - it was a personal revelation of and from Jesus. If you sincerely want a personal revelation from Jesus, ask him for it, just like Thomas did.  Put the ball in his court.

I've done this.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILdBDOPoEDQ

I know this video has probably made the rounds before, but I'll post it again.  Showing how "God" is really just a part of yourself, I think answers why so many people think that God speaks to them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j8ZMMuu7MU

[arian (Banned)]

This has always bothered the hell out of me: the condition that you must have faith and can never expect God to show anything to you.

So the guy created every plant and animal on earth, and all its cells and each cell's atoms, and all the planets in our solar system and all the solar systems in our galaxy and all the galaxies in the universe and the universe itself...he's omnipotent and omnipresent, he actually exists in our thoughts and in everybody's thoughts at the same time...and yet he can't spare 2 minutes to pop in and say hi?


Seems pretty fishy to me.

I could answer that, ... but I have to refer to the Bible, which I was warned time and again not to do by the moderators and others here.

Must be nice to ask God questions, make fun of Him and not let Him speak with that gentle voice from the Bible. And your a happy atheist with that?

Why? Because you guys KNOW the Bible has an answer to every question you throw at Him.  Try me.. or lock me out of this forum...

[Tristan Jay]

Must be nice to ask God questions, make fun of Him and not let Him speak with that gentle voice from the Bible. And your a happy atheist with that?

I personally am not an atheist, but I would have a lot more peace of mind if he didn't exist, or we were able to rid ourselves of him literally or metaphorically.  However, neither myself or atheists don't think it's a big deal because we either don't believe he exists, or we think he can take it.  If it's troubling to look at, why torture yourself; why seek out something that's going to cause you to suffer needlessly?  Keep in mind, if God really is the way Christians describe him, He's a tough old boy and can take it.  Also keep in mind that insults and mocking questions thrown at him are not things we expect yourself or Christians to answer; God needs to take responsibility for answering better, more conclusively, more effectively.  It seems like it's an awful burden to take the weigh that He should be taking Himself.

And I have to answer now directly to the real reason I'm responding to your post: "The gentle voice of God."  I have to contend this, because the Bible sure don't show Him to be gentle.  Still, assuming He is smart and all knowing, then He would have known what credibility He might have jeopardized for some people when he ordered quite a respectable number of genocides, so He would have known every person in future generations who would have been disgusted by the notion that He has a gentle voice.  He couldn't have shown some self-restraint (or just done it Himself and not said a thing about it)?  The voice who played a dare and double-dare game with the Devil to prove some guy's loyalty to Him, by letting the Devil have his way with Job?  Knowing that voice might do the same to me...I would not consider that a gentle voice.

The thought of Him loftily boasting of gentle and loving in a ways better than what humans are capable of causes me to feel nearly uncontrollable impulses of rage.  Him, the concept of Him, is like an insult to humanity that makes me want to scream.

Maybe He should have shown a better example.  Maybe there's opportunity still for Him to get his act together, and show us a truly gentle and loving voice that doesn't have violence and the threat of violence behind all He says.  Many people on this planet who are just living out their lives well are making Him look bad without effort.  He's only embarrassing Himself.  Rejection and mockery of Him is not rejection and mockery of you; don't take it personally.

And now, I'm off to read works derived from teachings of the gentle voice of Buddha.  It helps me cope. 

[arian (Banned)]

Must be nice to ask God questions, make fun of Him and not let Him speak with that gentle voice from the Bible. And your a happy atheist with that?

I personally am not an atheist, but I would have a lot more peace of mind if he didn't exist, or we were able to rid ourselves of him literally or metaphorically.  However, neither myself or atheists don't think it's a big deal because we either don't believe he exists, or we think he can take it.  If it's troubling to look at, why torture yourself; why seek out something that's going to cause you to suffer needlessly?  Keep in mind, if God really is the way Christians describe him, He's a tough old boy and can take it.  Also keep in mind that insults and mocking questions thrown at him are not things we expect yourself or Christians to answer; God needs to take responsibility for answering better, more conclusively, more effectively.  It seems like it's an awful burden to take the weigh that He should be taking Himself.

And I have to answer now directly to the real reason I'm responding to your post: "The gentle voice of God."  I have to contend this, because the Bible sure don't show Him to be gentle.  Still, assuming He is smart and all knowing, then He would have known what credibility He might have jeopardized for some people when he ordered quite a respectable number of genocides, so He would have known every person in future generations who would have been disgusted by the notion that He has a gentle voice.  He couldn't have shown some self-restraint (or just done it Himself and not said a thing about it)?  The voice who played a dare and double-dare game with the Devil to prove some guy's loyalty to Him, by letting the Devil have his way with Job?  Knowing that voice might do the same to me...I would not consider that a gentle voice.

The thought of Him loftily boasting of gentle and loving in a ways better than what humans are capable of causes me to feel nearly uncontrollable impulses of rage.  Him, the concept of Him, is like an insult to humanity that makes me want to scream.

Maybe He should have shown a better example.  Maybe there's opportunity still for Him to get his act together, and show us a truly gentle and loving voice that doesn't have violence and the threat of violence behind all He says.  Many people on this planet who are just living out their lives well are making Him look bad without effort.  He's only embarrassing Himself.  Rejection and mockery of Him is not rejection and mockery of you; don't take it personally.

And now, I'm off to read works derived from teachings of the gentle voice of Buddha.  It helps me cope. 

Hello Tristan Jay, a pleasure to meet you.

Everything you said makes sense, and as I see how you understand our Creator through the theistic religions and their gods, I don't blame you at all. I have gone through the mire myself, so many questions seemed to be unanswered.

But think about this for a second, what if you bought something at Sears, and it turned out to be everything you didn't want or expected, and then you went to a Circle K and started to bitch out the poor Indian owner behing the counter, you'd let all your frustrations out on him, throw the merchandise on the floor and leave?

This is what's happening with the Atheists, they are blaming their Creator for something the Pagan Christian religions with their theistic gods have caused. Satan is laughing his but off.

I have the answer to your frustrations, .. that is if you are truly willing to hear me out?

And yes, there are a lot of feel-good things in Budhaism too, if you like that druggy feeling... LOL. Todays Christianity offers that same drug, an artificial feel-good ministry with a smile as fake as Jan Crouches hair on TBN.

If you're willing to listen, I will start tomorrow, and remember I give you no handycap, you may use any source from science to the rat infested temples of India, to YouTube videos depicting how God is torturing those starving children in Africa.

I will be happy to answer your present post tomorrow, .. fare enough?

Thank you for the opportunity, and take care my friend.

[Thunder Road]

This has always bothered the hell out of me: the condition that you must have faith and can never expect God to show anything to you.

So the guy created every plant and animal on earth, and all its cells and each cell's atoms, and all the planets in our solar system and all the solar systems in our galaxy and all the galaxies in the universe and the universe itself...he's omnipotent and omnipresent, he actually exists in our thoughts and in everybody's thoughts at the same time...and yet he can't spare 2 minutes to pop in and say hi?


Seems pretty fishy to me.

I could answer that, ... but I have to refer to the Bible, which I was warned time and again not to do by the moderators and others here.

Must be nice to ask God questions, make fun of Him and not let Him speak with that gentle voice from the Bible. And your a happy atheist with that?

Why? Because you guys KNOW the Bible has an answer to every question you throw at Him.  Try me.. or lock me out of this forum...

I got one for you...


Why?

[Thunder Road]

Your Sears/Circle K example (whatever a Circle K is...) is basically a rehashing of the Jesus /= Religion video that was popular last week, in that many people seem to think you can separate religion from God.  But everything religion says, it does so because God said so.  If you ask a person who opposes gay marriage, for instance, why they opposite, many (not all, but many) will say because The Bible says it's an abomination.  Their theology is based off the word of God.  You cannot separate theology from God.  Theology IS God.  The "Pagan Christian religion" base EVERYTHING off of what they believe God told them.

Your example would be valid if I took out my frustration with the Christians at a mosque. 

To reuse your example, what you say is that the corporate office is great, but the franchise stores are the problem.  But guess what, the franchise stores' policies are based on what their corporate office dictates of them.

[Gawen]

But think about this for a second, what if you bought something at Sears, and it turned out to be everything you didn't want or expected, and then you went to a Circle K and started to bitch out the poor Indian owner behing the counter, you'd let all your frustrations out on him, throw the merchandise on the floor and leave?

I would find that rather rude, although I would understand the person's frustration.

This is what's happening with the Atheists, they are blaming their Creator for something the Pagan Christian religions with their theistic gods have caused. Satan is laughing his but off.

Nice of you to show us your arrogance and condescension. Have you no honor, that you could be so presumptive to speak for all atheists? To throw in the face those who do not believe in such foolishness as a creator or divine creation or Satan?

I have the answer to your frustrations, .. that is if you are truly willing to hear me out?

Nah, if you can say the things about people as you do in this post...

And yes, there are a lot of feel-good things in Budhaism too, if you like that druggy feeling... LOL.

Ah, so now you paint with a very large brush to attack Buddhist as well.

If you're willing to listen...

I'm not. I would rather listen to Hitler talk to the farting preacher on the phone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzHvfNr25fQ&feature=related

[Guardian85]

This is what's happening with the Atheists, they are blaming their Creator for something the Pagan Christian religions with their theistic gods have caused. Satan is laughing his but off.

Do you really not see the logical fallacy of this statement? Atheists blaming their Creator? Atheists don't believe in a creator. That is one of the core definitions of what it means to be an atheist. Why would we blame a creature we don't believe exists in the first place? 
(And no, we don't believe is Satan either.)