God is perfect

[Ecurb Noselrub]

I don't know.  It could be God, it could be Satan, it could be my own mind.  I'm simply relating my experience, and in my experience, it appears to me to be God.  This is about faith, not absolute knowledge.  I don't claim to know, I am simply reporting the basis for my belief.

How does your faith manifest itself?
Could you consider acting on faith a dangerous thing, even if it were the god or the god's messengers sending you the messages?

My faith manifests itself generally in my view of life: that there is a meaning and purpose to life, that the end result is good even if there are struggles in the middle, that human life is special or even sacred, that love is the best principle to guide our relationships.  I can't imagine acting on my faith would ever be dangerous to anyone.  I don't receive specific messages from God other than 1) what I generally feel as a result of my experiences, and 2) what Jesus taught in the New Testament. I can't imagine any of that being dangerous.  If you are talking about a message to do harm to someone, if I thought I had received such a message (which I have not), I would assume that it was my own head.  A message to harm someone would be completely inconsistent with Jesus' teachings and what I have experienced.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Do you have conversations with God?

I pray and meditate upon God, and believe that I sense his presence, but if you mean do I hear a voice, the answer is "no".  I get a sense sometimes that I am being guided by a divine hand, but that's about the extent of it.

[MadBomr101]

I have heard atheists here wondering why the religious give their god credit for good things but no blame for the bad, but that's hardly the same thing.

I've never agreed with calling God good, not from a judgmental standard anyway. Obviously, God is good because God is God. Whatever God does is what God wills to do and whatever is God's will is by definition, good. Jesus apparently understood  this, and so I accept it as truth.

There is no standard of good or bad that hangs over God. God decrees all standards. That's all I'm trying to say.

Well, if your god is not good why should you wish to worship him in the first place? Are you a closet masochist?
If you are a moral person, you would fight agaist that which is not good, no matter who or what is doing it.

If your god is not good, then your god is not worthy of my worship.

It's because Egor sees himself as god's personal buddy *nudge* *wink*

Just like wannabe bullies bascially worship the bully ringleader, people like Egor bascially want to feel like a close buddy of a powerful being.

That's actually kinda sad, isn't it?

It's pretty much pathetic.

[MadBomr101]

I've never agreed with calling God good, not from a judgmental standard anyway. Obviously, God is good because God is God. Whatever God does is what God wills to do and whatever is God's will is by definition, good. Jesus apparently understood  this, and so I accept it as truth.

Were you a dog in a previous life?

To a dog, it's human owner is god. Seemingly all powerful and infinitely intelligent, the owner's voice booms with divine command. Without question, without any thoughts of why, it fetches a stick because the divine commands it so.
Dogs make great warriors. They will fight and even kill on command, being an amoral slave to the command of their god they will not question, they will not think, they simply do because the divine commands it so.

The difference I see between you and the dog is that sometimes the dog gets rewarded. Sometimes its god tosses a doggie treat, or bestows a congratulatory pat on the head. Its god may even take care of it if wounded on the battlefield. Your god gives you silence, no treat, no pat, just leaves you to lick your own wounds or even to die if you are in such a state that you require help to live.
The dog is smart, it understands the concept of working for reward, but I guess old habits are hard to break.

And the Oscar for best analogy goes to... 

[Stevil]

My faith manifests itself generally in my view of life: that there is a meaning and purpose to life, that the end result is good even if there are struggles in the middle, that human life is special or even sacred, that love is the best principle to guide our relationships.  I can't imagine acting on my faith would ever be dangerous to anyone.  I don't receive specific messages from God other than 1) what I generally feel as a result of my experiences, and 2) what Jesus taught in the New Testament. I can't imagine any of that being dangerous.  If you are talking about a message to do harm to someone, if I thought I had received such a message (which I have not), I would assume that it was my own head.  A message to harm someone would be completely inconsistent with Jesus' teachings and what I have experienced.

Nice  

Not trying to convince you not to believe in a god, but do you know that you can be a "good", loving and compassionate person even without a god belief?
You could even take on board some of the positive philosophies that you like from within the New Testament and still be an atheist.

[Stevil]

The key to me is reading posts made by the likes of Gawen, TheJackle, Kevin Crady etc. These people appear to know the bible inside out. They have read it and obviously have taken a great deal of time to study it and understand it. They are all self professed ex-warriors of God. And yet, they see the bible and its atrocities, contradictions, "evil" actions carried out by the "evil Christian god, his "evil" army of angels and his "evil" earthly Christian companions.

I will take that as an extreme compliment. I bow to you! However, for me only, I have never believed.

Ahhh, sorry Gawen. I thought due to your knowledge and determined fervour you once were. I certainly remember TheJackle (previous HAF member) making comments that he once was one. Kevin Crady's awsome "Yeshua's Amazing Magical Snake Oil^tm" post was beautifully crafted.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

My faith manifests itself generally in my view of life: that there is a meaning and purpose to life, that the end result is good even if there are struggles in the middle, that human life is special or even sacred, that love is the best principle to guide our relationships.  I can't imagine acting on my faith would ever be dangerous to anyone.  I don't receive specific messages from God other than 1) what I generally feel as a result of my experiences, and 2) what Jesus taught in the New Testament. I can't imagine any of that being dangerous.  If you are talking about a message to do harm to someone, if I thought I had received such a message (which I have not), I would assume that it was my own head.  A message to harm someone would be completely inconsistent with Jesus' teachings and what I have experienced.

Nice  

Not trying to convince you not to believe in a god, but do you know that you can be a "good", loving and compassionate person even without a god belief?
You could even take on board some of the positive philosophies that you like from within the New Testament and still be an atheist.

Of course I know that you can be "good" without believing in God. But I don't believe in God in order to be good. I believe because of my own personal experience.  So, that's where it stands.

[Stevil]

Of course I know that you can be "good" without believing in God. But I don't believe in God in order to be good. I believe because of my own personal experience.  So, that's where it stands.

OK, that's cool. Thanks for taking the time to explain your personal position, I can respect that.

[xSilverPhinx]

Would you say you represent the minority, majority or somewhere in between, Bruce?

[Gawen]

Generally, Christians hold all three of the following statements:

1)   God is omnipotent (metaphysical statement)
2)   God is perfectly good (metaphysical statement)
3)   Evil exists (ontological statement)

The contradiction cannot be lost, if a person is able to read and comprehend. Here one needs to distinguish between two types of evil: Moral evil and natural evil. Moral is evil brought about by moral agents/human beings which highlights intention. Natural evil is pain and suffering brought about by such as earthquakes, diseases, famines, floods, etc. and focuses on suffering or the consequences thereof. I leave it to you philosophers. The PoE deserves its own thread.

Most of this crap starts with Augustine. The foundation of Augustine's theodicy: There exists two rival and partially celestial camps. One seeking to follow the ways of God and one seeking to follow their own desires. The presence of sin and evil occur as the result of God-given freedom of choice for both humanity and angels. That although all of humanity stands guilty before God (Romans 5), God will bring salvation to some despite that no one deserves it.

What does this have to do with a perfect God? Simply, 'God saw all that he had made, and it was very good' - Genesis 1:31. God gets a free pass. He's innocent. Augustine says, "A willful turning of the self in desire from the highest Good, which is God himself, to some lesser good". This would mean that no evil comes from God. That sounds a lot like what Bruce and Egor say, doesn't it? The problem with Bruce, Egor and Augustine is that they utter unsubstantiated assertions.

"For when the will abandons what is above itself, and turns to what is lower, it becomes evil - not because that is evil to which it turns, but because the turning itself is wicked" - Augustine. Reread that phrase from Augustine. Does that sounds like a perfect Gods perfect creation? Not to me.

Reformed theology teaches evil goes back to the sin of Adam where in Genesis 3. It teaches that physical disruption and corruption came about directly from human disobedience. But can God be perfect if it creates an imperfect creation? Or if created perfectly and with prior knowledge it allows the creation to become imperfect? A divine plan? If the world, in all it's fullness is an expression of Divine creativity and only limited by what God can do or has conceived of doing, then is this world perfect? Is God? All of us can imagine a significantly better world than the one we live in now. Thus it seems that either the world is not perfect or that God has limited ability, or vision.

Augustine used a lot of assertions. He said that although the world looks imperfect to us this is because we look at things from a limited or distorted perspective. Ask Bruce or Egor if their belief is distorted. I would wager they would say no, but it is our vision of the world that is distorted. It does amaze me that Augustine, Anslem, Bruce, Egor and every Christian theist have such faith that they can make certain and positive assertions without proof of the very thing they place their faith in. So is God perfect? Well, they cannot even demonstrate their god; so the question of its existence is foremost than the question of whether or not it is perfect. But Gods existence is not the title of this thread.

As far as I know, all of Christianity says all degrees of good and evil have a place within the Divine Will. On the other hand, if all of Christianity does NOT say this, it is said in the Bible. They say our views about imperfection (and evil) are merely relative to our own viewpoint. If this were not so then God's sovereignty would have to be questioned for just about every event - for they may have been brought about beyond God's control. For Augustine and just about every Christian, this would be anathema. Remember, nearly all, if not all Christian theodicy is designed to protect God's sovereignty, perfection AND God's perfect goodness.

So, asserting that God is perfect cannot be done to anyone's satisfaction without faith and special pleading in that which cannot be seen. Talking about a gods perfection cannot be done without calling the PoE into view as well. But is god perfect? Many believe sin is a blemish on God's creation. Because God created sin and sin is punished, it means God uses the sin and the punishment to further his own purposes. However, this brings us to the notion that if God has predestined sin to be a part of the world and our experience, God is responsible for sin and moral evil in the world...there is no distorting that.
If god has predestined:
Some people to be saved,
Responsible for sin that creates a blemish on his own creation,
Ambition to further his own purpose, whatever that may be (due to the two above statements), then God is evil, immoral or amoral (and no where near perfection in either).

So why is God not perfect? If a perfect being sins then it was not created perfect in the first place. If God made covenants to last for eternity with his chosen people, and the Jesus story is true, then God sinned against his own commandments and covenants with his chosen people AND against his chosen people. This is not an example of a perfect being. If a covenant is made for all eternity, predestination fails utterly and the whole shebang is rendered faulty. Not a good example of a perfect being here either.

There is no pie in the sky behind the curtain, smoke and flames and mirrors.

There is no "Evil" or "Perfection" either.

[Sandra Craft]

Of course I know that you can be "good" without believing in God. But I don't believe in God in order to be good. I believe because of my own personal experience.  So, that's where it stands.

It sounds like you agree with the same saying I do: If there is a god then I will live my life the best way I can, if there is no god then I will live my life the best way I can.

[Egor]

Were you a dog in a previous life?

To a dog, it's human owner is god. Seemingly all powerful and infinitely intelligent, the owner's voice booms with divine command. Without question, without any thoughts of why, it fetches a stick because the divine commands it so.
Dogs make great warriors. They will fight and even kill on command, being an amoral slave to the command of their god they will not question, they will not think, they simply do because the divine commands it so.

The difference I see between you and the dog is that sometimes the dog gets rewarded. Sometimes its god tosses a doggie treat, or bestows a congratulatory pat on the head. Its god may even take care of it if wounded on the battlefield. Your god gives you silence, no treat, no pat, just leaves you to lick your own wounds or even to die if you are in such a state that you require help to live.
The dog is smart, it understands the concept of working for reward, but I guess old habits are hard to break.

The dog analogy is very apropos. I really don't have much argument with it. However, you are wrong about the reward part, and the silence part. Unfortunately, it seems you have never experienced God's reward in your life and his voice. What a pity. At least, however, he's keeping you alive for a while yet to change your ways.

That's the bottom line.

[Stevil]

The dog analogy is very apropos. I really don't have much argument with it. However, you are wrong about the reward part, and the silence part. Unfortunately, it seems you have never experienced God's reward in your life and his voice. What a pity. At least, however, he's keeping you alive for a while yet to change your ways.

That's the bottom line.

Could you give a detailed description of his voice?
Would it be the same voice that other people hear? It would be interesting to see if there is some commonality between believers descriptions.

[Stevil]

Unfortunately, it seems you have never experienced God's reward in your life and his voice.

Have you seen my post 13 on this thread, about a possible con, how do you know your PE hasn't been a con?

[fluttershine]

What a pity. At least, however, he's keeping you alive for a while yet to change your ways.

That's the bottom line.

-chortles- your posts are oddly amusing. and very difficult to take seriously.