God is perfect

[Sweetdeath]

Do you have conversations with God?

[MadBomr101]

Religion in general relies upon people shutting down the reasoning center of their brains and leaving it off at all times when practicing their faith.  They not only do this but they are taught to be proud of it by proclaiming it to be a demonstration of the strength of their faith.  They do not question the nonsense of what they believe and they make lame excuses to protect it.  Egor's post up there is a good example.

This is all made to be pleasing to their all-powerful magical space daddy so he will reward them with an afterlife cookie.   

[Tristan Jay]

I don't judge God; how can you? By using the standard God put in your mind?

From what I have observed about humans and how they socialize standards of behavior, there is a generalize demand or desire in our psyche to see those who are of higher station and who enforce the expected standards should measure up to those established standards as well or better as  ourselves, as an example to us.  I see the impulse rearing up when a politician gets caught violating ethical or moral standards; and the impulse and rage is powerfully strong when it is religious authorities and organizations that are discovered to be greatly wanting (Catholic Church).

Most of the Monotheists among humanity give God a free pass, when it comes to looking toward Him to exemplify the moral standards as well as/better/perfectly when compared to us.  It's something of a curiosity that we demand that those in authority exemplify the standards, yet this stops dead when we get to God.  God with a level of perfection built up for him so high above those petty political and religious figure, and the standard set by him isn't even remotely modelled for us by Him when we look through the Bible.  The simplest examples: He tells us not to kill, He commits and commands genocide.  He tells us not to covet our neighbors' spouse and possessions, yet he demands (and the Bible says jealously) that all our relatives love Him more, even as far as at the expense of us (when he's already got everything, or can have anything he wants, anyway?).  Even if all of us on this planet faced the undeniable proof that he exists, there will always be humans who will not give him a free pass, Creator or not.

I've speculated in my mind that we humans challenge ourselves to meet a higher standard that He never bothers do himself (even if Jesus Christ is his example, then we have to ask about the times where he's been in violation of that standard outside the context of living life as Jesus; and He might very well just come out say, "Yeah...by the way, Jesus's life, example, and sacrifice was meant to take My sins away as well as all of yours" but He hasn't weighed in on that, so the stain of His own sin might as well be considered to linger). 

That example of killing children because they teased a prophet for being bald is fucking ridiculously petty, the majority of decent humans wouldn't even consider doing such a thing (feelings hurt or not, example needed or not), so how the fuck does He think He's going to get off boasting about His perfection and bitching endlessly about our immorality while He dares to show such a fucking stupid example? 

It's almost as if we have been able to better ourselves above his own example, taken his Commandments and made them even more stringent for ourselves (hypothetical example, we debate about whether withholding the truth qualifies as lying, and some people live their lives to that standard; and we might very well take that amplified standard and ask why God withholds truths from us).

I find it interesting that if a rock falls from a mountain and crushes a busload of kids, you blame God and not the rock, and yet you claim to be an atheist. Why is it atheists spend so much time blaming a God they don't believe exists?

Or are you trying to say that because of these things, there is no God? Fine, then why the outrage?

I can only speak for myself.  Not all the posters here are atheists.  I'm not.

[Sandra Craft]

I don't judge God; how can you? By using the standard God put in your mind?

By the fact that humans created god, and all the rules and privileges assigned to it.  And those of us who do not participate directly in the creation of this myth are certainly entitled to ask those of you who do what in world you're thinking of.

I find it interesting that if a rock falls from a mountain and crushes a busload of kids, you blame God and not the rock, and yet you claim to be an atheist. Why is it atheists spend so much time blaming a God they don't believe exists?

I can only speak for myself.  Not all the posters here are atheists.  I'm not.

I'm not sure who Ed's talking to, since I can't recall any atheist on this forum blaming god for disasters.  Atheists I've known seem to understand better than most that shit happens.

I have heard atheists here wondering why the religious give their god credit for good things but no blame for the bad, but that's hardly the same thing.

[xSilverPhinx]

Here's the thing you're going to have to get your head around..

Here's the thing you're going to have to get your head around: who the hell are you to say?

[xSilverPhinx]

I don't judge God; how can you? By using the standard God put in your mind?

From what I have observed about humans and how they socialize standards of behavior, there is a generalize demand or desire in our psyche to see those who are of higher station and who enforce the expected standards should measure up to those established standards as well or better as  ourselves, as an example to us.  I see the impulse rearing up when a politician gets caught violating ethical or moral standards; and the impulse and rage is powerfully strong when it is religious authorities and organizations that are discovered to be greatly wanting (Catholic Church).

Most of the Monotheists among humanity give God a free pass, when it comes to looking toward Him to exemplify the moral standards as well as/better/perfectly when compared to us.  It's something of a curiosity that we demand that those in authority exemplify the standards, yet this stops dead when we get to God.  God with a level of perfection built up for him so high above those petty political and religious figure, and the standard set by him isn't even remotely modelled for us by Him when we look through the Bible.  The simplest examples: He tells us not to kill, He commits and commands genocide.  He tells us not to covet our neighbors' spouse and possessions, yet he demands (and the Bible says jealously) that all our relatives love Him more, even as far as at the expense of us (when he's already got everything, or can have anything he wants, anyway?).  Even if all of us on this planet faced the undeniable proof that he exists, there will always be humans who will not give him a free pass, Creator or not.

I've speculated in my mind that we humans challenge ourselves to meet a higher standard that He never bothers do himself (even if Jesus Christ is his example, then we have to ask about the times where he's been in violation of that standard outside the context of living life as Jesus; and He might very well just come out say, "Yeah...by the way, Jesus's life, example, and sacrifice was meant to take My sins away as well as all of yours" but He hasn't weighed in on that, so the stain of His own sin might as well be considered to linger). 

That example of killing children because they teased a prophet for being bald is fucking ridiculously petty, the majority of decent humans wouldn't even consider doing such a thing (feelings hurt or not, example needed or not), so how the fuck does He think He's going to get off boasting about His perfection and bitching endlessly about our immorality while He dares to show such a fucking stupid example? 

It's almost as if we have been able to better ourselves above his own example, taken his Commandments and made them even more stringent for ourselves (hypothetical example, we debate about whether withholding the truth qualifies as lying, and some people live their lives to that standard; and we might very well take that amplified standard and ask why God withholds truths from us).

I agree with this, even though I find the theistic idea of god(s) to be unbelievable. That sort of respect just can't be demanded, at least not for me.

Trying to terrorise into fearfulness is not the same as demanding respect. real respect has to be earned, and the best way to earn it is to go by example.

The theistic idea of god sort of fails at this.

[Tristan Jay]

Trying to terrorise into fearfulness is not the same as demanding respect. real respect has to be earned, and the best way to earn it is to go by example.

Wow!  That kind of goes to the core of what I seem to have danced around, and taken the point a step further.  Nice, xSilverPhinx!

I'll take this and develop it along the lines of thinking it leads me to.  It brings me to the whole Trust thing.  We know the cliche, and there are more refined ideas about it.  

The cliche goes: Trust is earned, not given.  In accordance with this, God hasn't earned the trust of all people.  Every individual person has their own personalized boundaries for where trust in earned, and God (who should know everything) simply doesn't tailor his response effectively.

The more realistic version of the way things happen (described to me at different times by Christians) is that we place our trust in something or someone without knowing that this trust is going to be affirmed as a worthy investment.  We then withdraw our trust if the object or subject of our trust does not measure up to our requirements to continue according our trust.  Even within this senario, God (with perfect knowledge) should know when the threshold has been reached, and an individual's trust is withdrawn.  Therefore, He is to blame for every person who withdraws their trust, because He should know better.

Which makes him look like a real fucking moron when it comes to relationships...

Whatever people believe or rationalize in the wake of the decision to withdraw or withhold trust, is His responsibility, because we are only working with what we can see and what our mind processes.  Anything else is what He shows us or not.  His responsibility, if what the Bible and Christians say is true.  Or his responsibility to 'fess up about what he really isn't capable of.  I'm sure he could muster the energy to make an effort to communicate honestly about that.

I don't think the Free will argument can be brought in to counter this, either.  There are people whose Free will is imperfect; might as well lay the blame at God's feet for that one.  There's always the example of God hardening the Pharaoh's heart so that God could kill all the first borns, what the fuck was the point of interfering with a person's Free Will in order to "justify" killing lots of people?  And look, we've come full circle with the "do not kill" thing!




Edit: Attributed quote - Tank

[Stevil]

I don't know.  It could be God, it could be Satan, it could be my own mind.  I'm simply relating my experience, and in my experience, it appears to me to be God.  This is about faith, not absolute knowledge.  I don't claim to know, I am simply reporting the basis for my belief.

How does your faith manifest itself?
Could you consider acting on faith a dangerous thing, even if it were the god or the god's messengers sending you the messages?

[Egor]

I have heard atheists here wondering why the religious give their god credit for good things but no blame for the bad, but that's hardly the same thing.

I've never agreed with calling God good, not from a judgmental standard anyway. Obviously, God is good because God is God. Whatever God does is what God wills to do and whatever is God's will is by definition, good. Jesus apparently understood  this, and so I accept it as truth.

There is no standard of good or bad that hangs over God. God decrees all standards. That's all I'm trying to say.

[Guardian85]

I have heard atheists here wondering why the religious give their god credit for good things but no blame for the bad, but that's hardly the same thing.

I've never agreed with calling God good, not from a judgmental standard anyway. Obviously, God is good because God is God. Whatever God does is what God wills to do and whatever is God's will is by definition, good. Jesus apparently understood  this, and so I accept it as truth.

There is no standard of good or bad that hangs over God. God decrees all standards. That's all I'm trying to say.

Well, if your god is not good why should you wish to worship him in the first place? Are you a closet masochist?
If you are a moral person, you would fight agaist that which is not good, no matter who or what is doing it.

If your god is not good, then your god is not worthy of my worship.

[xSilverPhinx]

I have heard atheists here wondering why the religious give their god credit for good things but no blame for the bad, but that's hardly the same thing.

I've never agreed with calling God good, not from a judgmental standard anyway. Obviously, God is good because God is God. Whatever God does is what God wills to do and whatever is God's will is by definition, good. Jesus apparently understood  this, and so I accept it as truth.

There is no standard of good or bad that hangs over God. God decrees all standards. That's all I'm trying to say.

Well, if your god is not good why should you wish to worship him in the first place? Are you a closet masochist?
If you are a moral person, you would fight agaist that which is not good, no matter who or what is doing it.

If your god is not good, then your god is not worthy of my worship.

It's because Egor sees himself as god's personal buddy *nudge* *wink*

Just like wannabe bullies bascially worship the bully ringleader, people like Egor bascially want to feel like a close buddy of a powerful being.

[Guardian85]

I have heard atheists here wondering why the religious give their god credit for good things but no blame for the bad, but that's hardly the same thing.

I've never agreed with calling God good, not from a judgmental standard anyway. Obviously, God is good because God is God. Whatever God does is what God wills to do and whatever is God's will is by definition, good. Jesus apparently understood  this, and so I accept it as truth.

There is no standard of good or bad that hangs over God. God decrees all standards. That's all I'm trying to say.

Well, if your god is not good why should you wish to worship him in the first place? Are you a closet masochist?
If you are a moral person, you would fight agaist that which is not good, no matter who or what is doing it.

If your god is not good, then your god is not worthy of my worship.

It's because Egor sees himself as god's personal buddy *nudge* *wink*

Just like wannabe bullies bascially worship the bully ringleader, people like Egor bascially want to feel like a close buddy of a powerful being.

That's actually kinda sad, isn't it?

[Sandra Craft]

I have heard atheists here wondering why the religious give their god credit for good things but no blame for the bad, but that's hardly the same thing.

I've never agreed with calling God good, not from a judgmental standard anyway. Obviously, God is good because God is God. Whatever God does is what God wills to do and whatever is God's will is by definition, good. Jesus apparently understood  this, and so I accept it as truth.

There is no standard of good or bad that hangs over God. God decrees all standards. That's all I'm trying to say.

Not my point, but whatever.  This is the god you've created for yourself and the rules you've applied to it.  That's understood.  You need to understand that you declaring your god beyond judgement has no affect on whether or not we can judge it.

So are you now retracting your claim that atheists, at least on this board, blame your god for misfortunes?

[Crow]

Fine, then why the outrage?

What outrage are you talking about? Outrage towards a nonexistent god that is sincere rather than in jest I have yet to see from an atheist, however outrage at a person who professes to be doing immoral actions in the name of a god or preaching discrimination due to a book they consider to be "the truth" I have seen.

[Stevil]

I've never agreed with calling God good, not from a judgmental standard anyway. Obviously, God is good because God is God. Whatever God does is what God wills to do and whatever is God's will is by definition, good. Jesus apparently understood  this, and so I accept it as truth.

Were you a dog in a previous life?

To a dog, it's human owner is god. Seemingly all powerful and infinitely intelligent, the owner's voice booms with divine command. Without question, without any thoughts of why, it fetches a stick because the divine commands it so.
Dogs make great warriors. They will fight and even kill on command, being an amoral slave to the command of their god they will not question, they will not think, they simply do because the divine commands it so.

The difference I see between you and the dog is that sometimes the dog gets rewarded. Sometimes its god tosses a doggie treat, or bestows a congratulatory pat on the head. Its god may even take care of it if wounded on the battlefield. Your god gives you silence, no treat, no pat, just leaves you to lick your own wounds or even to die if you are in such a state that you require help to live.
The dog is smart, it understands the concept of working for reward, but I guess old habits are hard to break.