i am a born again christian

[rlrose328]

So let me make my first question. Why are you atheist, and what evidence do you have to claim, God does not exist ?

Hi Angelo... nice to have you here.

I do not claim to have any evidence that god doesn't exist... you cannot have evidence for something that doesn't exist.  That's not scientifically possible.  If you have evidence for something, it must exist.  So having evidence for something that doesn't exist is a red herring in this discussion.

It is incumbent upon the person making the claim that something exists to prove it exists.  And the fact that a book says it exists is not proof.  If that is all there is to prove it exists, then I posit that Harry Potter and Hogwarts exists.  Prove to me that it doesn't.  You can't.

I'm an atheist for many reasons, primarily because there is no evidence that a supreme being exists.  The possibility is so low, it's not worth looking for it anymore.  And if that god DOES exist, he's a mean, vindictive, manipulative being that doesn't deserve my devotion.  

I believe in being a good person because it's the right thing to do, not because a book tells me to.

So... what is your next question?

[rlrose328]

most have said : there is no evidence to say God does exist. I don't agree categorically. First evidence God exists is creation.

Not true... the fact that we exist is a story that is covered by ALL religions so that doesn't prove the existence of the Christian god any more than it proves the existence of any other god(s).  I can provide evidence that the Big Bang resulted in our existence and it is just as valid (if not moreso) because of the evidence for it.

Live can come only from live. DNA has a Code. Codification means there is something complex and organized, and there must be a intelligent mind behind it, to codify it.

You mean "life" right?  Where are you getting your copy and paste?  If you can't get "life," how did you get "codify"?  And codification doesn't prove the existence of god.  HUMANS came up with the code of DNA... just because DNA and a code thereof exists doesn't prove the existence of god.

Since science generally agrees that the universe had a beginning ( the second law of thermodynamics also reforces this claim ), there was someone, or something, that started the whole process. Otherwise, nothing would have appeard.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics has been manipulated by the religious community and the scientific community has refuted that repeatedly.  It's a we said/they said argument that means nothing and cannot prove god.

The bible. it is impossible, that e genious mind simply invented the bible, and it is all fantasy. Archaeology confirms that the events, and places mentioned in the bible, existed.

There are MANY documents that mention many of the events mentioned in the bible.  The fact taht they are also mentioned in the bible doesn't prove the existence of god.  It proves that many people have a lot of the same ideas.  It happens now and it happened then.

The scientific correctness of the bible text.

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg1348.htm

1. Jeremiah 31:35-36--"Thus says the Lord, who gives the sun for light by day, and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night...'If this fixed order departs from before Me,' declares the Lord, 'then the offspring of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me forever'" (NASB). When I was a kid I remember thinking it was amazing how the planets all stayed in their orbits. The orbits of the moon and planets are so constant that eclipses can be predicted with great accuracy.

Profecies :  over 1000 prophecies were made in the bible, and many fullfilled already, and many are in the way to be fullfilled. just see israel, that is a nation again. something, predicted in the bible a view thousend years ago.

Tesimonies : millions of people all over the world have been transformed and blessed by the message of the gospel. and inumerous can tell how God did interveen in their lives.

Bull.  You cannot quote the bible to prove god any more than I can quote Harry Potter to prove Voldemort exists.  The "millions of people can't be wrong" theory is also bull.  YES they can be wrong... There are hundreds of thousands of Mormons as well... the fact that there are so many of them doesn't prove that belief system is true either.

[Mister Joy]

hi all

my name is angelo. i am a born again evangelical christian. i would like to share
my belief with who ever wants to know better the christian faith. i am not here to try to convert anyone , because, this is a personal decision, but to explain issues, that many of you might have pre judgement and not a comprehensive knowledge. I intend to respect anyone's convictions here, and expect the same of you.

So let me make my first question. Why are you atheist, and what evidence do you have to claim, God does not exist ?

Hey, nice to have you here. I'm fairly certain that most of the people here do have a hefty dose of 'comprehensive knowledge' regarding religion - many of them are ex-Christians themselves - so nobody's really pre judging anything, as such. As for me, I've never been religious in any way, however I'm on several Christian forums and only one atheist one (I like having lots of people to disagree with cuz I'm just perverse that way

Profecies : over 1000 prophecies were made in the bible, and many fullfilled already, and many are in the way to be fullfilled. just see israel, that is a nation again. something, predicted in the bible a view thousend years ago.

The only reason Israel is a nation again is because of that prophesy, you realise. As such it's completely self-fulfilling, much like many of the others. Either that or they're simply very vague and it would be shocking if they didn't happen sooner or later.

Tesimonies : millions of people all over the world have been transformed and blessed by the message of the gospel. and inumerous can tell how God did interveen in their lives.

Many more people have experienced placebo.

[angelosergipe]

Does the Bible Contain Scientific Errors?

Many Christians assume the Bible contains scientific errors, and that it is authoritative only when it speaks on spiritual matters. But that is saying in effect that the God who wrote the Bible knew a lot about spiritual things, but not too much about science. To say that parts of the Bible are accurate, but others are not is to deny the inspiration and inerrancy of the Bible. Since God knows all things, and what He speaks is true (cf., Titus 1:2), all that the Bible teaches is accurate, not just its spiritual truths.

The issue is not between science and Scripture; the issue is whether man will submit to the Word of God. Romans 1:28 describes people who refuse to submit as those who "did not like to retain God in their knowledge." Because they rejected God's revelation of Himself as Creator, men came up with the only alternative: that the universe and everything in it just happened.

Lesson

I. THERMODYNAMICS

There are three principles basic to science: matter, energy, and the space-time continuum. Science tells us that none of the three can exist without the other two; therefore all three must have existed from the beginning of the universe. Note that Genesis 1:1 mentions all three: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

A. The First Law of Thermodynamics

The Bible says in Genesis 2:2 that "God ended His work which He had made." The matter and energy that was part of the original creation is all there will ever be; no new matter or energy is being created. The complete cessation of creative activity has been recognized by modern science as the first law of thermodynamics, or the law of the conservation of mass and energy. According to this law, which is one of the most universal and certain of all scientific principles, nothing is now being created or destroyed. That principle is illustrated in the following verses:

1. Isaiah 40:26--"Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, who bringeth out their host by number; he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might; for he is strong in power. Not one faileth."

2. Nehemiah 9:6--"Thou, even thou art Lord alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are in it, the seas, and all that is in them, and thou preservest them all."

3. Ecclesiastes 3:14-15--"I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever; nothing can be put to it, nor anything taken from it .... That which hath been is now, and that which is to be hath already been."

The Word of God accurately states the first law of thermodynamics.

B. The Second Law of Thermodynamics

This law, also known as the law of entropy, tells us that though energy cannot be destroyed, its ability to do useful work decreases. Systems tend to degenerate from a state of order to a state of chaos. Science tells us that eventually this process will lead to the death of the universe.

The Bible teaches that the second law of thermodynamics is a result of the Fall. Romans 8:20-22 says, "The creation was made subject to vanity, not willingly but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope. Because the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." Although that passage pictures the entire creation as progessively breaking down, it also gives us hope for the future. When God creates the new heaven and the new earth, the second law of thermodynamics will not operate. In that new creation there will be no more curse, death, decay, or sin.

II. HYDROLOGY

A. Defined

Hydrology is the branch of science that studies the waters of the earth. In the hydrologic cycle, water evaporates into the atmosphere and is redeposited onto the earth in the form of rain or snow. That precipitation feeds rivers, which flow into the ocean. Evaporation from the ocean forms clouds, from which precipitation falls on the land, and the cycle repeats itself.

B. Described

The science of hydrology was founded in the seventeenth century by Mariotte, Perrault, and Halley, but the hydrologic cycle is clearly described in Scripture:

1. Isaiah 55:10-11--"As the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return there without watering the earth, and making it bear and sprout, and furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater; so shall My word be which goes forth from My mouth; it shall not return to Me empty, without accomplishing what I desire, and without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it" (NASB).

2. Ecclesiastes 1:7--"All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full." That's because of the hydrologic cycle.

3. Job 36:27-28--"He [God] draws up the drops of water, they distill rain from the mist, which the clouds pour down, they drip upon man abundantly" (NASB).

4. Psalm 135:7--"He causeth the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings for the rain." This verse speaks of evaporation and precipitation.

5. Job 26:8--"He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not torn under them." This verse speaks of the formation of clouds by condensation.

6. Job 28:10--"He cutteth out rivers among the rocks." This verse describes run-off.

7. Job 38:22--"Hast thou entered into the treasuries of the snow? Or hast thou seen the treasuries of the hail?" This speaks of the clouds.

III. ASTRONOMY

A. The Size of the Universe

1. Job 22:12--"Is not God in the height of heaven? And behold the height of the stars, how high they are!" Although the height of the stars was unknown until the nineteenth century (Jean Sloat Morton, Ph.D., Science in the Bible [Chicago: Moody, 1978], p. 15), the book of Job recognized they were very distant from the earth.

2. Jeremiah 31:37--"Thus saith the Lord, if heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord." This verse mentions the immense size of the universe. It also tells us that God will not permanently set aside Israel.

B. The Variety of Stars

1. Jeremiah 33:22--"As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured, so will I multiply the seed of David, my servant." The invention of the telescope in the seventeenth century made men aware of the vast number of stars. Beforehand scientists had said the total number was only in the hundreds or thousands. Only about four thousand can be counted with the unaided eye. Today no one knows how many stars there are, but "with the giant telescopes now available ..., astronomers have statistically estimated that there are about 1025 stars (that is, 10 million billion billion) in the known universe. One can also calculate that this is about the number of grains of sand in the world" (Henry M. Morris, The Biblical Basis for Modern Science [Grand Rapids: Baker, 1984], p. 156; The Genesis Record [Grand Rapids: Baker, 1976], p. 384). The Bible is accurate when it states the impossibility of numbering the stars.

2. 1 Corinthians 15:41--"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory." With the development of modern astronomy has come the realization that there is great variety of sizes and degrees of brightness among stars. If the Bible had stated that all stars were the same, it would have been in error. However, it doesn't say that because God knows as much about stars as He does about salvation!

C. The Order of the Solar System

1. Jeremiah 31:35-36--"Thus says the Lord, who gives the sun for light by day, and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night...'If this fixed order departs from before Me,' declares the Lord, 'then the offspring of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me forever'" (NASB). When I was a kid I remember thinking it was amazing how the planets all stayed in their orbits. The orbits of the moon and planets are so constant that eclipses can be predicted with great accuracy.

2. Psalm 19:6--Referring to the sun the psalmist says, "His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it; and there is nothing hidden from the heat thereof." This verse took on new meaning when it was discovered that the sun, along with the other stars in our galaxy, revolve around the center of the galaxy. Astronomy books currently teach that the sun completes one such circuit every 250 million years (e.g., Robert Jastrow and Malcom H. Thompson, Astronomy: Fundamentals and Frontiers [New York: John Wiley & Sons, 1977], p. 6)

IV. GEOLOGY

A. Isostasy

Isostasy is a field of study within geology that deals with the balance maintained within the earth's crust. The differing weights of the various types of rock maintain a delicate balance; otherwise the earth would wobble in its rotation like a lopsided basketball. Isaiah 40:12 says, "[God] hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and measured out heaven with the span, and measured the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance." Psalm 104:5, 8 tells us that God "established the earth upon its foundations, so that it will not totter .... The mountains rose; the valleys sank down to the place which [He] didst establish for them" (NASB). The Bible teaches that the earth is balanced.

B. Geodesy

This branch of geology studies the size and shape of the earth.

1. The ancient views

a) The flat-earth theory

People in ancient times thought of the earth as being a flat disk, like a record, surrounded by a river called Oceanus. It was believed that anyone foolish enough to sail through the Pillars of Hercules (the Strait of Gibraltar) would fall off the earth into nothingness.

b) The Ptolemaic theory

Ptolemy, in the second century after Christ, proposed a spherical earth as the stationary center of the universe, with the sun and the other heavenly bodies revolving around it. Not until the sixteenth century with the discoveries of

Copernicus was this theory abandoned.

2. The biblical view

In contrast to the widely held ancient belief that the earth was flat, the Bible clearly teaches that it is round. Isaiah 40:22 says, "It is He who sitteth upon the circle of the earth." Job 38:14 says, "It [the earth] is turned like clay to the seal." That is a reference to the small cylinders used in ancient times to put one's seal on a clay document. Those cylinders had sticks through the center, like a rolling pin, and while the clay was still soft, they would be rolled across it, leaving the impression of the seal. The Bible tells us the earth rotates on its axis like a cylinder making a seal.

V. METEOROLOGY

A. Wind Circulation

In the seventeenth century George Hadley discovered that the winds circulate around the earth. Thousands of years earlier the book of Ecclesiastes referred to this phenomenon: "The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to its circuits."

B. Air Pressure

Before the time of Galileo, it was not known that the air had weight. Evangelista Torricelli, a student of Galileo, invented the first barometer, proving the air has pressure. However, Scripture implied that thousands of years before. Job 28:25 says, "He imparted weight to the wind" (NASB).

[McQ]

Oh, how I wish I had the time and inclination to write a rebuttal to this pap.

I have about half the time I need, but really no inclination to do this again. It's like the movie, Groundhog Day. Same thing over and over again.

This is right out of the creationist manual of argument for those who cannot think for themselves.

Please, somebody with more patience take this!

Really, anyone with an actual knowledge of the crap that this guy is spewing can take this one.

I have to go take some Tylenol.   :roll:

Please forgive my lack of tolerance tonight.

[shoruke]

I'm atheist because MY belief is that hypocrisy is the ultimate sin. Since the bible is our only way of hearing god's word, really, and the bible is full of hypocrisy as well as mean-ness (hope that's a word), then even if it was true, I would simply reject it.

Also, I can't find anything to prove that god exists. Scientists have proved where we were two thousand years ago, and where the things we evolved from were WAY before that. They can calculate the size of a black hole, and see farther into space than ever before. I'm confident that one day, scientists will discover when (if at all) the universe and life started.

[Bella]

You know what's wrong with creepy, preachy religious freaks like this angelo dude? They don't know how to think for themselves.

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg1348.htm

If you had any idea what you were actually talking about, you'd put it in your own words and maybe just quote your source. In fact, you just keep copy and pasting that same lame internet source. The only way I'm pretty sure that the first post is yours is because you don't know how to use proper grammar.

Any caveman could observe things like water cutting away at rocks and the sun coming up in the morning. The AUTHOR (aka, not you) who wrote this is pulling things out of his butt. Trying to turn "God and everything he does is awesome forever" into the conservation of energy is a pathetic and desperate attempt at word-play. Let's use this especially humorous example:
Psalm 135:7--"He causeth the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings for the rain."
Sooooo, from the ends of the earth? Not like... the oceans, rivers, or other "bodies of water"? No wonder churches got so upset when people found out that the earth is ROUND! Lol, "the ends of the earth", haha! "He maketh lightnings for the rain" is also laughable. What, we don't get to know where lightning comes from? Gee, that's too bad. Good thing scientists found out that AIR FLOW AND TEMPERATURE actually cause lightning, not your invisible friend, and it doesn't necessarily have to be raining.

Psalm 104:5, 8 tells us that God "established the earth upon its foundations, so that it will not totter .... The mountains rose; the valleys sank down to the place which [He] didst establish for them" (NASB). The Bible teaches that the earth is balanced.

This author (once again... not you) is a moron. Quoting "established the earth upon it's foundations" is not something that I would think he would wave around. Yes, upon it's foundations... of turtles. *mocks you*

Here's another biblical contradiction... just for fun... because the only people are probably going to read this with any thought are my fellow athiests and not Mr. Angelo:
Matthew 19:26 - "With God, all things are possible"
Judges 1:19 - "And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."

(Heh heh... Nooo! Not iron! Hehe)

You should be ashamed of yourself for posting someone else's words instead of responding to anything that WE have said. So, you obviously don't care enough to respond to what we say or to use whatever misguided "knowledge" that you think that you have. Hence, you are completely wasting our time and energy. It is completely offensive that your original post said that you wanted to inform us of things that we didn't understand, and then plagerize someone else's words. I have further opinions... but they would involve some pretty nasty words, so I'll just stop here.

[angelosergipe]

most have said : there is no evidence to say God does exist. I don't agree categorically. First evidence God exists is creation.

You're not using scientific terms already causes problems with your case. If you mean the source of life on Earth, then we already have many wonderful theories, each with evidence. Some of that evidence is undeniable, none of it has anything to do with a mythological entity.

Live can come only from live. DNA has a Code. Codification means there is something complex and organized, and there must be a intelligent mind behind it, to codify it.

Life can come from non-life, in fact. While I don't imagine googling "origin of life" is particularly difficult, nor is going to science class at school, I will briefly explain some evidence:
- The Miller-Urey experiment in the 1950s demonstrated how simply combining gasses present several billion years ago on earth,  water (H2O), methane (CH4), ammonia (NH3) and hydrogen (H2), could create organic amino acids. This is proof positive of organic compounds from non-life.
- After WW2, scientist Sidney W. Fox studies spontaneous formation of peptides from amino acids (like those amino acids created from inorganic elements above). He was able to demonstrate that peptides could be formed by those amino acids spontaneously.
- Peptides and amino acids can catalyze aldol reactions, some of which can yield sugars. This can be a metabolic cycle.

this experiment has not taken important facts in consideration. first of all, why should these elements react without a external power and force, to behave exactly the way needed, to create live ? chance give billions of other possibilities, no one will have live as a result. why should chance choose exactly the right elements , combinations, complexity and order, to create live ? it is mathematically impossible. its not reasonable.

Bam. Life.

Since science generally agrees that the universe had a beginning ( the second law of thermodynamics also reforces this claim ), there was someone, or something, that started the whole process. Otherwise, nothing would have appeard.
'Science' does not generally agree that the universe had a beginning. The Big Bang theory, the most prevalent theory of the current incarnation of the universe, does not necessarily require an absolute beginning. Some scientists believe that the universe had a beginning, an other scientists like myself disagree. Each side does have some evidence, fortunately, but none of it has anything at all to do with mythological figures.

i think God as a possible cause of the universe has to  be taken as very probable possibility, and not as a mythological figure. it is very unlikely that the universe had no creator as origin. even if it was eternal, as you claim, this hiptheses brings severe problemas. where does the power and force come from, that holds materia together ? where do the physical laws come from ? gravity, for example ? to take it as granted and normal , acceptable fact, that it existed naturally without a creator, is not racional. racional, without taking god in consideration, is, that nothing would exist. for any reasonable person, these are obstacles, that cannot be solved. It takes a big portion of faith to believe , no God did it.

Even if the universe had a beginning, and we weren't able to explain it, reasonably, god would still be the least likely possibility. Why? God, according to most religious texts, exists outside any understandable rule of science. That automatically make him/her/it the most complex and thus least likely answer to any scientific question.

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg1348.htm

One presupposition held by many scientists is that "the scientific method is the sole gateway to the whole region of knowledge" (Pearson, cited by Clark, p. 201). In other words, science allegedly has absolute authority. Science says that truth is discovered empirically, while the Bible says that man can't find ultimate truth on his own (1 Cor. 2:9-11; Rom. 11:33). It is here that one of the fundamental conflicts between science and Scripture is found. Science holds that only that which is observable and testable is true. Christianity holds that ultimate truth is found only in God's revelation.

lThe bible. it is impossible, that e genious mind simply invented the bible, and it is all fantasy. Archaeology confirms that the events, and places mentioned in the bible, existed.

Just like events from literally every mythology on Earth have some historical reference. This is simply because the authors wrote in actual occurrences for credibility. If I were to write a bible which included my full understanding of human history (which considering I'm a history buff, would be extensive), would that make it true? Obviously not as I myself would be making it up.?

it is highly improbable that someone would just invent a story, as the bible tells us. and if, people of the first century were not stupid. do you think thousends of christians, which lived in the roman empire, did let torture themself and be killed, just for a fictionary book ? these people had a real experience with god, same as christians today have. thats why their faith is so strong. all over the globe, even today, people are persecuted because of their christians faith. and these people do not give up their faith.  why ?

?

Many? How many and which? I'd like to be able to refute them each for you. ?

you will be able doing it, but beeing  highly irracional. in the book of daniel, he predicted the exact year, jesus would be crucified. how do you explain that ?

Tesimonies : millions of people all over the world have been transformed and blessed by the message of the gospel. and inumerous can tell how God did interveen in their lives
Millions of people are also made happy by Marijuana. Do you worship cannabis?

this is a stupid comparison. it seems you do not want to take the hipotheses God seriously, want you ?

[angelosergipe]

"and what evidence do you have to claim..."

I won't get into the details of this argument, but I do have something to say. The burden of proof is on you, man! Atheists claim there is no God based on the fact that He's nowhere to be found.

Any relationship Christians claim with the almighty is imaginative at best.
.

If we're supposed to have an intimate relationship with Jesus, then we should be able to call him on the phone or have lunch, you know? .

I am an atheist primarily because it makes sense, not because anyone has specific proof. .

What’s more likely: that a man rose from the dead, or that somebody made it up? People like to make up spectacular and meaningful religious stories. They have done it for thousands of years. And if one religious narrative is made one up then it’s entirely possible they are all made up. Atheism, voila!.

I used to be a Christian. In fact I was a Christian for the first 24 years of my life. I was the president of a high school Christian club, and also at my university. I many times considered ministry as a profession. I was tired of processing every sensory observation through my Christian filter. I would try and render every idea to the collective Christian world view. I realized how much richer life is when you don’t have to make sense of it through the pages of an ancient book. How boring it became, and how liberating it was when I finally just let go! .

life without God makes no sense at all. its absolut emptyness.

[angelosergipe]

So let me make my first question. Why are you atheist, and what evidence do you have to claim, God does not exist ?

Hi Angelo... nice to have you here.

I do not claim to have any evidence that god doesn't exist... you cannot have evidence for something that doesn't exist.  That's not scientifically possible.  If you have evidence for something, it must exist.  So having evidence for something that doesn't exist is a red herring in this discussion.

It is incumbent upon the person making the claim that something exists to prove it exists.  And the fact that a book says it exists is not proof.  If that is all there is to prove it exists, then I posit that Harry Potter and Hogwarts exists.  Prove to me that it doesn't.  You can't.

I'm an atheist for many reasons, primarily because there is no evidence that a supreme being exists.  The possibility is so low, it's not worth looking for it anymore.  And if that god DOES exist, he's a mean, vindictive, manipulative being that doesn't deserve my devotion.  

I believe in being a good person because it's the right thing to do, not because a book tells me to.

So... what is your next question?

you might stop to talk about proofs, since talk about it is senseless. we have no proofs wheter god exists, or not, so we should talk about evidence. is there evidence, god exists ? of course !! without god, nothing would exist. order and complexity is always a evidence and sign of a intelligence behind it.

[angelosergipe]

You mean "life" right?  Where are you getting your copy and paste?  If you can't get "life," how did you get "codify"?  And codification doesn't prove the existence of god.  HUMANS came up with the code of DNA... just because DNA and a code thereof exists doesn't prove the existence of god.

you are plain wrong here :

http://www.creationism.org/heinze/SciEvidGodLife.htm

Is abiogenesis possible? Not only are proteins never formed in nature outside of living cells, the amino acids from which they are built are of two kinds: Half are called left-handed and half right-handed. Only proteins containing all left handed amino acids will work in living things because proteins which contain any right-handed amino acids have the wrong shape and will not connect properly to the proteins around them. It is a bit like when you take a piece out of a puzzle, turn it upside down and try to put it back in where you took it out. It is the same size and shape, but it won’t fit. In nature, all left handed amino acids are only formed by living cells. Amino acids formed in experiments like Miller’s, are half left, and half right-handed so they will not work in the proteins of living things. This is more scientific evidence that life could not form without a Creator. Add it to the fact that in nature, no proteins at all will form outside of cells.

 â€œâ€¦ no one has yet succeeded in creating RNA.”{Peter D. Ward, Donald Brownlee, Rare Earth, Why complex Life is Uncommon in the Universe, 2000, p. 65, see also 62-6}. Many atheists today are leaving a false argument about proteins to accept an even more false argument about RNA. The fact that RNA is vital to the life of every cell, and cannot be made except by already living cells is powerful evidence against life forming without a Creator.

Neither making proteins, folding, addressing, nor regulating their production could invent itself, yet no cell could live unless all were in place working together. These brilliant solutions are scientific facts and constitute evidence for a very intelligent Creator who plans ahead.

[Steve Reason]

You mean "life" right?  Where are you getting your copy and paste?  If you can't get "life," how did you get "codify"?  And codification doesn't prove the existence of god.  HUMANS came up with the code of DNA... just because DNA and a code thereof exists doesn't prove the existence of god.

you are plain wrong here :

http://www.creationism.org/heinze/SciEvidGodLife.htm

Is abiogenesis possible? Not only are proteins never formed in nature outside of living cells, the amino acids from which they are built are of two kinds: Half are called left-handed and half right-handed. Only proteins containing all left handed amino acids will work in living things because proteins which contain any right-handed amino acids have the wrong shape and will not connect properly to the proteins around them. It is a bit like when you take a piece out of a puzzle, turn it upside down and try to put it back in where you took it out. It is the same size and shape, but it won’t fit. In nature, all left handed amino acids are only formed by living cells. Amino acids formed in experiments like Miller’s, are half left, and half right-handed so they will not work in the proteins of living things. This is more scientific evidence that life could not form without a Creator. Add it to the fact that in nature, no proteins at all will form outside of cells.

 â€œâ€¦ no one has yet succeeded in creating RNA.”{Peter D. Ward, Donald Brownlee, Rare Earth, Why complex Life is Uncommon in the Universe, 2000, p. 65, see also 62-6}. Many atheists today are leaving a false argument about proteins to accept an even more false argument about RNA. The fact that RNA is vital to the life of every cell, and cannot be made except by already living cells is powerful evidence against life forming without a Creator.

Neither making proteins, folding, addressing, nor regulating their production could invent itself, yet no cell could live unless all were in place working together. These brilliant solutions are scientific facts and constitute evidence for a very intelligent Creator who plans ahead.

What else ya' got? Keep trying. You believe a staff can turn into a snake, water can turn into wine, god was scared by a bunch of men building a tower to heaven, and other such tripe, but atheists are the ones who have silly believes.

Right. You're wasting your time partner.

[Steve Reason]

By the way, these statements...

"The fact that RNA is vital to the life of every cell, and cannot be made except by already living cells is powerful evidence against life forming without a Creator.

Neither making proteins, folding, addressing, nor regulating their production could invent itself, yet no cell could live unless all were in place working together. These brilliant solutions are scientific facts and constitute evidence for a very intelligent Creator who plans ahead."

...are asinine. And what's even more asinine is that you will now, of course, make the leap that you not only know who that supposed creator is, but that you also know which religion it wants us to practice.  

[SteveS]

angelosergipe - there's probably not much point in discussing this with you - you clearly have your mind made up.  The biblical quotes you give are, frankly, amazing.  Open up any other religion's "true" scriptures and you will find similar observations about the world.  Why do you not accept these scriptures as true?  In fact, these quotes amount to somebody saying "the sun appears to rise in the morning, and set in the evening, each and every day" from which you deduce "Eureka!  The book is true, god is real, and we shall have life everlasting!".  These quotes aren't explanations of anything - they are simple observations that anybody can make.

Here's a little bit of what I mean:

As the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return there without watering the earth, and making it bear and sprout, and furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater

When it rains plants grow.  I noticed this too.

All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full

 This one was truly inspired.  Small point: some rivers run into lakes.  They don't all run into the sea.  Also - what would it be like if the sea were full?  I could imagine an empty sea - but a full sea?  When would we consider the sea "full"?  When it covers all the land?  What if it gets deeper - is it then "overfull"?  This statement is ridiculous.  "the sea is not full" - come on man, you must be able to appreciate a little bit of the humor in that statement?  Laugh with me, it'll feel good        

He causeth the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings for the rain." This verse speaks of evaporation and precipitation

Um, okay, other than the fact that we know the physical principles that cause evaporation and precipitation, and lightning (since you neglected to mention that one, which the verse clearly seems to speak about).  Where is the conclusion that these things are caused by 'Him' justified?  Last time I checked nobody detected any god fields making it rain - just plain old physics man.

He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not torn under them." This verse speaks of the formation of clouds by condensation.

Again - the process by which clouds and condensation form is well understood - no god required for an explanation.

He cutteth out rivers among the rocks." This verse describes run-off.

Two complaints about this one:
1) Technically, the water cuts the rock, not god
2) Describing run-off is not the same thing as explaining it.  If the theory of gravitation had been tacked in here then I would have been impressed.  But it wasn't.

Is not God in the height of heaven? And behold the height of the stars, how high they are!

Is god in the 'height of heaven'?  Is this supposed to be obvious or something?  Care to give me an example of where this fact was established?

Also - interesting to describe the distance of stars from earth as "height".  One could almost think the description suffers from a flat-earth mentality......

"Thus saith the Lord, if heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord." This verse mentions the immense size of the universe. It also tells us that God will not permanently set aside Israel.

Heaven can't be measured because nobody can find it - if it doesn't exist, how would one measure it?  But you claim this is not about heaven, but about the universe.  Okay - except that the size of the universe has been determined.  Maybe not precisely, but pretty well, wouldn't you say?  And yet Israel is still a nation.  Curious, no?  Or, on the other hand, how could one argue that the 'foundations of the earth' have not been 'searched out'?  We know exactly how big the earth is, what is inside of it, etc. etc. etc.  And yet Israel is still a nation.  Another curiosity.

Thus says the Lord, who gives the sun for light by day, and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night...'If this fixed order departs from before Me,' declares the Lord, 'then the offspring of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me forever'" (NASB). When I was a kid I remember thinking it was amazing how the planets all stayed in their orbits. The orbits of the moon and planets are so constant that eclipses can be predicted with great accuracy.

Okay - it is hard for me to tell what the 'fixed order' is in this statement.  Any claim that the stars are in a 'fixed order' is false - all the stars are moving.  Over a long time the constellations change because the stars are changing their relative positions.  This appears to happen slowly because they are so far away and so far apart - but none-the-less, no 'fixed order' here.  In fact, the constellations even appear slightly different from different positions on the earth's orbit.  This effect is known as 'parallax' and is a widely used technique to estimate the distance of stars from the earth.

If, on the other hand, the 'fixed order' is just that the sun is visible in the day and the stars at night ---- well, even my 3 yo daughter has recognized that little fact  :roll:  .  This is alleged to be some enormous discovery of great insight?  Come on.  If this stops happening, then there either is no more sun or no more earth --- so Israel no longer being a nation seems like a safe bet.  Unless, by that time, human beings manage to populate other planets or space stations/ships and take their nationalities along with them.  Then maybe there could still be an Israel.  What difference would it make?

Anyway --- these above statements are ridiculous, but I'm going to tread on whole new ground below.  These subsequent claims expose your position for what it really is: denial.  The below statements are not just indifferent, they are abjectly, demonstrably, false.

Isostasy is a field of study within geology that deals with the balance maintained within the earth's crust. The differing weights of the various types of rock maintain a delicate balance; otherwise the earth would wobble in its rotation like a lopsided basketball. Isaiah 40:12 says, "[God] hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and measured out heaven with the span, and measured the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance." Psalm 104:5, 8 tells us that God "established the earth upon its foundations, so that it will not totter .... The mountains rose; the valleys sank down to the place which [He] didst establish for them" (NASB). The Bible teaches that the earth is balanced.

BUZZ!  Sorry, thanks for playing, make sure to get your parting gift.

Simple fact #1: Your description of isostasy is incorrect.  Here's a better description: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isostasy

Simple fact #2: the earth does totter.  Have you never heard of the precession of the earth?  Here's another wiki description (I know, the wiki is dark secret knowledge that is hard to access and understand, which probably explains why so few creationists seem to be familiar with it):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession

The precession is caused by the equatorial bulge --- the earth is not a perfect sphere.  The attraction of the sun and moon play on the imbalance of the bulge and induce the precession.  Now - because this is so important, I'm going to highlight it:

The Bible teaches that the earth is balanced.

Then the bible is wrong.  Period.  The earth is demonstrably not balanced.  The effects of this imbalance are measurable even without sophisticated telescopes and scientific equipment - the precession of the equinoxes was observed at least as early as several hundred years BC.

In contrast to the widely held ancient belief that the earth was flat, the Bible clearly teaches that it is round. Isaiah 40:22 says, "It is He who sitteth upon the circle of the earth." Job 38:14 says, "It [the earth] is turned like clay to the seal." That is a reference to the small cylinders used in ancient times to put one's seal on a clay document. Those cylinders had sticks through the center, like a rolling pin, and while the clay was still soft, they would be rolled across it, leaving the impression of the seal. The Bible tells us the earth rotates on its axis like a cylinder making a seal.

The bible teaches the earth is 'round'.  Oops.  Too bad it didn't teach that is was spherical - then it would have been right.  What is the "circle of the earth"?  See what I mean - the earth is not a circle - it is basically a sphere.  A somewhat squished imperfect sphere, but it more resembles a sphere than a circle.  And, point of fact, circles are still flat, right?  A circle is a two dimensional shape - in three dimensions the circle will appear flat.  Simple.

Job 38:14 doesn't seem to support your conclusion.  It says the earth is turned like the clay - not like the seal.  And, the clay is flat.  The clay is not spherical.  But besides all that, saying the earth turns like a cylinder is also not completely correct.  The earth turns like a sphere.

Conclusion?  You discount all the scientific theories of origin of life because they are not yet complete.  Until a scientific experiment can replicate, exactly, the environment of ancient earth and demonstrate the spontaneous formation of life you simply will not even listen.  Yet - you give all sorts of credence to these biblical quotes that aren't even correct.  While you require the science of origin of life to be brutally exacting, you accept a garbage story "like a balanced cylinder" about the earth's rotation and play horse shoes with it: "close enough - must be correct!".

This double standard might work for you --- but hopefully you at least understand why it does not work for me.  You are not comparing these positions equally at all which is why you have come to your conclusions.  Your biblical defenses are really just rationalizations.

Thanks to all who took the time to read through all this - sorry about the length.

[rlrose328]

you might stop to talk about proofs, since talk about it is senseless. we have no proofs wheter god exists, or not, so we should talk about evidence. is there evidence, god exists ? of course !! without god, nothing would exist. order and complexity is always a evidence and sign of a intelligence behind it.

Talking about "proofs" is senseless?  But reading the bible as the ultimate proof is logical, right?  Bah.

There IS NO EVIDENCE that god exists.  The bible is not evidence (reference my Harry Potter idea above).  Creation is not evidence because creation cannot be proven either... I say magic is real because in Harry Potter it's real.  There you go.  Magic is real.  That argument makes as much sense as your "we exist because god created us; therefore, god is real" argument.  It's specious at best and ridiculous at worst.  And what makes it heinous is that you insist that we ALL believe your delusion.

Without god, nothing would exist?  Without Thor, nothing would exist.  Without Yahweh, nothing would exist.  Without the Flying Spaghetti Monster, nothing would exist.  Without Zeus, nothing would exist...  

Are you getting this yet?  You have your god and many MANY other cultures have their god as well.  Which god are you referring to?

Order and complexity exist in many places without proof of a designer.  Just because something is orderly doesn't mean there HAS to be a designer!  How pompous are the religious!  "Things are nice and orderly, therefore, GODIDIT!"  Ugh.  :roll:

I've got to study for a test... this is making my head hurt.