Struggling Atheists deail replay to; Why God?

[Whitney]

I did in fact reply to Recusant with a ccp'd highlight of the U.S. Declaration of Independence where it states :' We hold these truths to be self evident, that'......(people have human rights , that God exists,  and that these basic rights come from God) , but, it never appeared in the thread .  So , either  it was moved to a new thread , or, a Forum Administrator deleted it  would be my guess .   

any posts you have made are located here:  http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=46367;sa=showPosts

None of the moderators would have deleted a post...so I'm guessing it's in some other thread if whatever you are talking about isn't in this thread.

[Recusant]

I did in fact reply to Recusant with a ccp'd highlight of the U.S. Declaration of Independence where it states :' We hold these truths to be self evident, that'......(people have human rights , that God exists,  and that these basic rights come from God) , but, it never appeared in the thread .  So , either  it was moved to a new thread , or, a Forum Administrator deleted it  would be my guess .  

Since the thread was split from before I asked my questions, I don't know how your answer could have gone missing. However, you are simply interpreting the Declaration of Independence in a specious manner, as I mentioned above, if you think that there is anything in it which says that "God exists" or that "God is self evident." Neither of those ideas are in the document, either explicitly or implicitly. "God" is generally understood in a European context as meaning the trinity of YHVH, Jesus and the Holy Ghost. On the other hand, you will find that often (especially during the latter part of the 18th century when the document in question was written) "Creator" signifies a Deistic entity; a non-personal (and non-Christian, by the way) creator who does not interfere in the universe at all. See for example Thomas Paine (an unequivocal Deist) in "My Private Thoughts on a Future State":

"I consider myself in the hands of my Creator, and that He will dispose of me after this life consistently with His justice and goodness. I leave all these matter to Him, as my Creator and friend, and I hold it to be presumption in man to make an article of faith as to what the Creator will do with us hereafter."

You are going to have to do better than to cite a sentence in the Declaration of Independence which does not say anything about a self evident quality of God, or simply admit that you're repeating falsehoods you've heard from unscrupulous Christian polemicists.

[Heisenberg]

Let's keep our eyes on the prize here. If the Declaration of Independence had god this and god that plastered all up and down it, what exactly would that do to prove the existence of anything?

[Liar For Jesus]

I did in fact reply to Recusant with a ccp'd highlight of the U.S. Declaration of Independence where it states :' We hold these truths to be self evident, that'......(people have human rights , that God exists,  and that these basic rights come from God) , but, it never appeared in the thread .  So , either  it was moved to a new thread , or, a Forum Administrator deleted it  would be my guess .  

Since the thread was split from before I asked my questions, I don't know how your answer could have gone missing. However, you are simply interpreting the Declaration of Independence in a specious manner, as I mentioned above, if you think that there is anything in it which says that "God exists" or that "God is self evident." Neither of those ideas are in the document, either explicitly or implicitly. "God" is generally understood in a European context as meaning the trinity of YHVH, Jesus and the Holy Ghost. On the other hand, you will find that often (especially during the latter part of the 18th century when the document in question was written) "Creator" signifies a Deistic entity; a non-personal (and non-Christian, by the way) creator who does not interfere in the universe at all. See for example Thomas Paine (an unequivocal Deist) in "My Private Thoughts on a Future State":

"I consider myself in the hands of my Creator, and that He will dispose of me after this life consistently with His justice and goodness. I leave all these matter to Him, as my Creator and friend, and I hold it to be presumption in man to make an article of faith as to what the Creator will do with us hereafter."

You are going to have to do better than to cite a sentence in the Declaration of Independence which does not say anything about a self evident quality of God, or simply admit that you're repeating falsehoods you've heard from unscrupulous Christian polemicists.

To reiterate vis-a-vis the lost post ;  This is from the U.S. Declaration of Independence....and its quite obvious what the Framers were getting at , that,  the Creator is one of the truths that is self evident  :  ' We hold these truths to be self-evident (AS FOLLOWS - added by me)  , that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness'  .  Each time the Framers emphasized the word 'THAT'  for all 3 of their points .  Its ludicrous to interpret that another way.   

Additional proof comes from the Framers commitment to the biblical Creator God, The Bible, Jesus CHrist, and the principles/ethics  of the Judeo-Christian Faith  :  .http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=8755 .

The U.S. was a Christian Nation established on Christianity until circa 1962  when a female Atheist almost single-handedly worked tirelessly to get prayer thrown out of public schools  , and suceeded.   This was the start of America becoming a secularized nation. 

[Ali]

I did in fact reply to Recusant with a ccp'd highlight of the U.S. Declaration of Independence where it states :' We hold these truths to be self evident, that'......(people have human rights , that God exists,  and that these basic rights come from God) , but, it never appeared in the thread .  So , either  it was moved to a new thread , or, a Forum Administrator deleted it  would be my guess .  

Since the thread was split from before I asked my questions, I don't know how your answer could have gone missing. However, you are simply interpreting the Declaration of Independence in a specious manner, as I mentioned above, if you think that there is anything in it which says that "God exists" or that "God is self evident." Neither of those ideas are in the document, either explicitly or implicitly. "God" is generally understood in a European context as meaning the trinity of YHVH, Jesus and the Holy Ghost. On the other hand, you will find that often (especially during the latter part of the 18th century when the document in question was written) "Creator" signifies a Deistic entity; a non-personal (and non-Christian, by the way) creator who does not interfere in the universe at all. See for example Thomas Paine (an unequivocal Deist) in "My Private Thoughts on a Future State":

"I consider myself in the hands of my Creator, and that He will dispose of me after this life consistently with His justice and goodness. I leave all these matter to Him, as my Creator and friend, and I hold it to be presumption in man to make an article of faith as to what the Creator will do with us hereafter."

You are going to have to do better than to cite a sentence in the Declaration of Independence which does not say anything about a self evident quality of God, or simply admit that you're repeating falsehoods you've heard from unscrupulous Christian polemicists.

To reiterate vis-a-vis the lost post ;  This is from the U.S. Declaration of Independence....and its quite obvious what the Framers were getting at , that,  the Creator is one of the truths that is self evident  :  ' We hold these truths to be self-evident (AS FOLLOWS - added by me)  , that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness'  .  Each time the Framers emphasized the word 'THAT'  for all 3 of their points .  Its ludicrous to interpret that another way.   

Additional proof comes from the Framers commitment to the biblical Creator God, The Bible, Jesus CHrist, and the principles/ethics  of the Judeo-Christian Faith  :  .http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=8755 .

The U.S. was a Christian Nation established on Christianity until circa 1962  when a female Atheist almost single-handedly worked tirelessly to get prayer thrown out of public schools  , and suceeded.   This was the start of America becoming a secularized nation. 

Now I totally call BS.  The US was NOT established as a Christian nation. I am now firmly of the opinion that you are not now, nor have you ever been, and atheist.  It's fine to be a Christian in this forum, but I don't respect people who lie about their positions to gain some sort of credence, and I have no desire to continue talking to someone who doesn't actually exist.  Nice not knowing you.

[Traveler]

SA, listen up. Creator does not equate to christianity. Many of the founding fathers were deists.

[Genericguy]

Now I totally call BS.  The US was NOT established as a Christian nation. I am now firmly of the opinion that you are not now, nor have you ever been, and atheist.  It's fine to be a Christian in this forum, but I don't respect people who lie about their positions to gain some sort of credence, and I have no desire to continue talking to someone who doesn't actually exist.  Nice not knowing you.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that. As I said earlier, that's being manipulative and is offensive. Can I suggest "struggling atheist"'s name be forcefully changed if he refuses to change it himself? I just think it's incredibly rude.

[Whitney]

SA, when wiki gets out of protest mode go read here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."  Treaty of Tripoli 1797 drafted during Washington's presidency then signed by John Adams during his presidency

oh and you might want to check out the wiki entries on when "god" was added to the pledge and US currency

[Liar For Jesus]

SA, when wiki gets out of protest mode go read here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."  Treaty of Tripoli 1797 drafted during Washington's presidency then signed by John Adams during his presidency

oh and you might want to check out the wiki entries on when "god" was added to the pledge and US currency

Tripoli is often cited by the Critics, and in this following Link it fully elaborates on the common misconception they have,  vis-a-vis George Washingtons statement and intent :  http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=125

[Traveler]

By the way, I agree with Ali and Genericguy. In fact, this has been my opinion from the very beginning when SA first joined. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, its probably a duck*.

*christian

[Recusant]

To reiterate vis-a-vis the lost post ;  This is from the U.S. Declaration of Independence....and its quite obvious what the Framers were getting at , that,  the Creator is one of the truths that is self evident  :  ' We hold these truths to be self-evident (AS FOLLOWS - added by me)  , that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness'  .  Each time the Framers emphasized the word 'THAT'  for all 3 of their points . Its ludicrous to interpret that another way.

First clause: ". . . all men are created equal . . ."

Second clause: ". . . they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights . . ."

Neither of these clauses addresses the question of whether the existence of the "Creator" is self evident. The second is specifically asserting that it is self evident that rights are endowed by that Creator. As I said in the third point in my reply to Ali earlier in this thread, the information available in the document simply does not support an assertion that the writers of the document are saying that the existence of the Creator is self evident. You can ridicule this fact all you want, but it remains a fact.
 

Additional proof comes from the Framers commitment to the biblical Creator God, The Bible, Jesus CHrist, and the principles/ethics  of the Judeo-Christian Faith  :  .http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=8755 .

Now you're citing David Barton, the infamous Dominionist liar-for-Christ as support for your position? That's rich.

The U.S. was a Christian Nation established on Christianity until circa 1962  when a female Atheist almost single-handedly worked tirelessly to get prayer thrown out of public schools  , and suceeded.   This was the start of America becoming a secularized nation.

. . . In case we didn't get it, you are now parroting the Dominionist party line about "Christian Nation." Learn some history, Struggling Atheist (), and I don't mean by reading the lies used by Dominionists to support their futile dreams of a Christian theocracy. The United States was founded on Enlightenment principles such as those of Montesquieu and Locke. The founders of the country picked and chose from among the political ideas of such Enlightenment thinkers. Specifically Christian doctrines (as opposed to generic ideals shared by many different cultures, including Christianity) are notably absent from the ideas expressed in the Constitution of the United States. Practically all of the Christian nations of that era were monarchies, firmly supported by Biblical doctrines which were seen as endorsing the divine right of kings; the founders of the United States specifically rejected that Christian ideal.

I am not denying that many of those who founded the country were Christian, but then again, some of most important of them were not. That diversity of opinion on religion didn't stop them from working together, but it likely had an effect when it came to deciding how much they intended for religion to affect the government they created. It is very clear, not only in the First Amendment's Establishment Clause, but in the Federalist Papers and other important writings that we have from them, that they were firmly of the belief that religion and government should never be entwined. The United States is and always has been governed by a secular government, the lies of such noisome mountebanks as David Barton notwithstanding.

[Sandra Craft]

SA, listen up. Creator does not equate to christianity. Many of the founding fathers were deists.

I'm not really sure the average Xtian understands the difference between theist and deist, much less Xtian and deist. 

[Whitney]

SA, when wiki gets out of protest mode go read here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."  Treaty of Tripoli 1797 drafted during Washington's presidency then signed by John Adams during his presidency

oh and you might want to check out the wiki entries on when "god" was added to the pledge and US currency

Tripoli is often cited by the Critics, and in this following Link it fully elaborates on the common misconception they have,  vis-a-vis George Washingtons statement and intent :  http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=125

Citing an article from a obviously biased website that starts out it's refutation by somehow tangling it in with a red herring by pointing out that Washington wasn't an atheist (he wasn't, he went to church) is a poor way of backing up your idea.

[Sandra Craft]

Citing an article from a obviously biased website that starts out it's refutation by somehow tangling it in with a red herring by pointing out that Washington wasn't an atheist (he wasn't, he went to church) is a poor way of backing up your idea.

Google finally acted friendly for me -- I found this regarding George Washington and religon:

"Dr. Rush told me (he had it from Asa Green) that when the clergy addressed General Washington, on his departure from the government, it was observed in their consultation that he had never, on any occasion, said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion, and they thought they should so pen their address as to force him at length to disclose publicly whether he was a Christian or not. However, he observed, the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly, except that, which he passed over without notice."
-- Thomas Jefferson, quoted from Jefferson's Works, Vol. iv., p. 572.

I know people claim this, that, and the other about Washington and religion but whatever he believed privately (and altho he did go to church, he went rarely and only to services and never to communion, said no prayers at mealtimes and made no mention of god or hopes for an afterlife on his death bed) he did his best in public to keep Government and religion separate, and to show no favoritism for any belief.

[Guardian85]

SA, when wiki gets out of protest mode go read here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."  Treaty of Tripoli 1797 drafted during Washington's presidency then signed by John Adams during his presidency

oh and you might want to check out the wiki entries on when "god" was added to the pledge and US currency

Tripoli is often cited by the Critics, and in this following Link it fully elaborates on the common misconception they have,  vis-a-vis George Washingtons statement and intent :  http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=125

Even if George Washington was a christian, which by todays american standards he most likely wasn't, the official Treaty of Tripoli still states that the United States of America is not a christian nation. And this passed the US Senate unanimously. That not one senator found fault with the wording of the document is very telling.

In this it is inconsequential what any one individual (Washington) might think.