What do you value more than happiness?

[Pharaoh Cat]

I challenge you to provide an instance of a decision you made that - however altruistic it may have been - was not made under the premise that the ultimate result would please you more than an alternative decision.

I still think the discrepancy here is more semantic than anything else.  You're using words more loosely than some of us would.  For example, let's say I'm walking in the woods.  I see a bear.  The bear sees me.  I have no gun.  The bear starts to run in my direction.  I flee.

Fleeing the bear, I'm not thinking about pleasure or pain, physical or emotional.  I'm thinking about the bear, and the nearest tree, and how fast I can run.  I fear the bear, hope for the tree, hate my slow legs. 

Sure, if the bear caught me, I wouldn't be happy.  But that's not the focus of my consciousness.  At that moment I'm all about the bear, the tree, and my legs.

If we talk about psychodynamic pressure, avenues of release, the path of least resistance, and the return to equilibrium, we can do justice to what any stimulus and any response really mean to any real person having to make a real decision in real time.  In the above example, I'd be experiencing psychodynamic pressure to get the hell away from the bear, my avenues of release would be to run in any of a dozen directions, the path of least resistance would be to run toward an available escape mechanism, and if I reach the tree and get up it in time, I will first be elated and then gradually relax into a state of equilibrium.

[The Magic Pudding]

I challenge you to provide an instance of a decision you made that - however altruistic it may have been - was not made under the premise that the ultimate result would please you more than an alternative decision.

There are the people who self harm.
I don't think they are doing it to please themselves.
They may think they don't deserve happiness.
Maybe being unhappy makes them happy?

I'd say being yourself is more important than being happy.

[Siz]

I still think the discrepancy here is more semantic than anything else. 

Possibly. If you are saying that happiness is a discrete entity, something independent of experiences, actions and decisions then I suppose you could argue that something else might be of more value (as in the OP). I just don't think this is the case. Every decision, inherently, has a happiness-quotient attached and we evaluate this whenever a decision is made - consciously or not.

For example, let's say I'm walking in the woods.  I see a bear.  The bear sees me.  I have no gun.  The bear starts to run in my direction.  I flee.

Regardless of the result of running from an angry bear, the instinctive flight mechanism will most likely kick-in without any 'decision' being made. In any case, escape from the bear is a conscious priority as the alternative would surely not hold a greater happiness-quotient. You have still not provided the example that disproves my assertion. I will concede when you do.

[Pharaoh Cat]

Every decision, inherently, has a happiness-quotient attached and we evaluate this whenever a decision is made - consciously or not.

If you do it unconsciously, how do you know you've done it?  The unconscious is unverifiable.  I could say to you, "Unconsciously you compare the various decisions to what Jesus would do."  And hey, maybe you do, but if you do, you'll never know, and if you don't, you'll never know that either.

You have still not provided the example that disproves my assertion.

Nor will I ever manage to do that.  The unconscious cannot be disproven.  You might as well have asserted leprechaun intervention.

I will concede when you do.

I concede.  You win.

[Siz]

I will concede when you do

Taken in context, this was to say that I will concede when you provide the example I requested.

To restate: I challenge you to provide an instance of a decision you made that - however altruistic it may have been - was not made under the premise that the ultimate result would please you more than an alternative decision. And you may answer for any conscious decision you wish.

[Pharaoh Cat]

To restate: I challenge you to provide an instance of a decision you made that - however altruistic it may have been - was not made under the premise that the ultimate result would please you more than an alternative decision. And you may answer for any conscious decision you wish.

This morning I decided to visit this thread and see what you wrote.  I never gave a moment's thought to my happiness.  I wanted to satisfy my curiosity.

This morning, on another thread, I decided to wish everyone a Happy 2012.  I never gave a moment's thought to my happiness.  I wanted to connect in a friendly way with all the people who wander in and out of here each day.

This morning I decided to feed my cat her wet food.  I never gave a moment's thought to my happiness.  I wanted my cat to have a full belly and get nutrients unavailable in her other food, which is dry nuggets.

I could write similar comments regarding every decision I make, Scissorlegs.  I never calculate my happiness versus my unhappiness before deciding to do something.  Rather, I experience one or more pressures demanding release, and I choose the path of least resistance so as to relieve the most pressure with the least effort and risk.  Sometimes the effort or risk may be substantial, but it will still be the least of any of my available options.  I'm sure I would attempt to run into a burning building to save my cat or either of my daughters.  Substantial risk to life and limb there may be in that, but the risk of other lives and other limbs would press upon me so heavily as to outweigh other considerations, and hopefully I would be capable of enduring the heat and smoke.  Not one nanosecond would I spend doing arithmetic around the relative happiness potential in each of the various options presenting themselves.  I would be too busy running toward the fire.

[DeterminedJuliet]

I think I agree with Scissorlegs on this one. We may not make every conscious decision with the intent that of "If I do A+B the result will be happiness", but I think it's a pervasive motivation, really. I might think "I'm hungry, I'll eat an apple" not "eating an apple will make me 'happy'", but I'd argue that the second thought process is probably closer to the reality of the situation, even if it's not conscious. We are always moving towards making ourselves "happier", it's usually just a question of whether we're focusing on doing this in the short-term or in the long-term.

I think the reason that we don't think about it in these terms is because we're pretty desensitized to most levels of happiness. Waking up, getting a coffee and getting a shower does make me happier, but, because I do it every day, it doesn't necessarily excite me much. Most of our "happiness" is more of a dull roar, as opposed to really exciting, so it's easier to dismiss as being an actual causation.

[Tank]

To restate: I challenge you to provide an instance of a decision you made that - however altruistic it may have been - was not made under the premise that the ultimate result would please you more than an alternative decision. And you may answer for any conscious decision you wish.

This morning I decided to visit this thread and see what you wrote.  I never gave a moment's thought to my happiness.  I wanted to satisfy my curiosity.

Which would of course made you happy. 

[Siz]

This morning I decided to visit this thread and see what you wrote.  I never gave a moment's thought to my happiness.  I wanted to satisfy my curiosity.

Why?

This morning, on another thread, I decided to wish everyone a Happy 2012.  I never gave a moment's thought to my happiness.  I wanted to connect in a friendly way with all the people who wander in and out of here each day.

Why?

This morning I decided to feed my cat her wet food.  I never gave a moment's thought to my happiness.  I wanted my cat to have a full belly and get nutrients unavailable in her other food, which is dry nuggets.

Why? Because if you didn't , your cat's hunger/misery would make you sad.

I'm sure I would attempt to run into a burning building to save my cat or either of my daughters.  Substantial risk to life and limb there may be in that, but the risk of other lives and other limbs would press upon me so heavily as to outweigh other considerations, and hopefully I would be capable of enduring the heat and smoke.  Not one nanosecond would I spend doing arithmetic around the relative happiness potential in each of the various options presenting themselves.  I would be too busy running toward the fire.

...because you know that if you didn't, you would not be very happy with yourself. Guilt, loss, cowardice, etc... You know this to be the case so you act selflessly for a happier outcome. The alternative decision would not be a bearable position.

[Pharaoh Cat]

I might think "I'm hungry, I'll eat an apple" not "eating an apple will make me 'happy'", but I'd argue that the second thought process is probably closer to the reality of the situation, even if it's not conscious.

OK.  Obviously my leprechaun gambit was unsuccessful.  I'll just reiterate that I can't argue against hypothesized unconscious thought processes.  If you said you unconsciously pictured pink chimps lighting handkerchiefs on fire and always decided for altruism if there were an odd number of handkerchiefs and selfish bastardliness if the number of handkerchiefs was even, I would be left with nothing to say except, "Oh, well I guess maybe you do, but neither you nor I will ever know."

But consider this.  Some stranger (a girl) randomly dials your cell phone number and tells you she's about to jump off a bridge.  She describes the rocks below in great detail and tells you she's dangling by one foot and one hand.  You immediately begin trying to reason with her, console her, trick her, or any other tactic that seems like it might work so as to get her to choose life instead of death.  While this is under way, would you in any sense be concerned with your own happiness?

Doesn't Occam's Razor suggest that if I make a decision, the elements of reality that I was thinking and emoting about just prior to making the decision are the elements of reality relevant to the decision I made?  Why, in interpreting my decision, would I add in some other element retroactively and claim that element to be most relevant?

[Siz]

But consider this.  Some stranger (a girl) randomly dials your cell phone number and tells you she's about to jump off a bridge.  She describes the rocks below in great detail and tells you she's dangling by one foot and one hand.  You immediately begin trying to reason with her, console her, trick her, or any other tactic that seems like it might work so as to get her to choose life instead of death.  While this is under way, would you in any sense be concerned with your own happiness?

How would you feel if you had allowed her to die? Not sure I could live with myself if I hadn't done what I could - and suffered any associated injury/inconvenience/discomfort - to save her. So, the outwardly altruistic act was made knowing that an alternative decision would have a personally unsatisfactory outcome.

Doesn't Occam's Razor suggest that if I make a decision, the elements of reality that I was thinking and emoting about just prior to making the decision are the elements of reality relevant to the decision I made?  Why, in interpreting my decision, would I add in some other element retroactively and claim that element to be most relevant?

The elements to which you are adamantly clinging are in fact tertiary to the primary (more basic) element of happiness.

[Pharaoh Cat]

This morning I decided to visit this thread and see what you wrote.  I never gave a moment's thought to my happiness.  I wanted to satisfy my curiosity.

Why?

Curiosity is a psychological drive.  It's a primary fact.  It doesn't need some antecedent principle to explain it.

This morning, on another thread, I decided to wish everyone a Happy 2012.  I never gave a moment's thought to my happiness.  I wanted to connect in a friendly way with all the people who wander in and out of here each day.

Why?

The desire for friendly connection is a psychological drive.  It's a primary fact.  It doesn't need some antecedent principle to explain it.

Is it important to you that human motivation boil down to a single unifying principle?  I can understand that, but why are you willing to postulate unconscious (and therefore unverifiable) processes?

As far as I can tell - and please correct me as needed - your logic could be expressed as the following syllogism:

A causes B.
Pharaoh Cat chose A.
Conclusion: Pharaoh Cat chose B.

(In the foregoing, B is happiness.)

That syllogism isn't valid.  The valid version would be written like this:

A causes B.
Choosing A causes A to occur.
Pharaoh Cat chose A.
Conclusion 1: A occurred.
Conclusion 2: B occurred.

In the foregoing, Pharaoh Cat chose A.  Pharaoh Cat did not choose B.  Rather, Pharaoh Cat's choice of A caused A to occur, which caused B to occur.  In order for Pharaoh Cat to choose B, Pharaoh Cat must actually choose B.  Causing B and choosing B are not the same thing.  Pharaoh Cat may be unaware that A causes B, or may be indifferent to the fact that A causes B, and in either instance, it would be misleading to suggest that Pharaoh Cat chose B, albeit no one would dispute that Pharaoh Cat caused B.

[Siz]

Rather, B is an intrinsic part of A. They are inseparable.

I don't disagree with your well-considered logic, but we evidently disagree about what happiness is which renders this argument irreconcilable.

It's not important to me that human motivation boils down to a single unifying principle, I just think it does.

Peace and happiness 

[Davin]

If I am proven to be in error in my supposition that my argument is a universal truth then I will concede that point. But until then I shall argue the point as follows:

I would give 'happiness' to mean the feeling derived from anything which pleases. And, as you say, pleasure does not preclude pain and vice-versa.

I don't think this is true either, I can be very depressed and as far from happiness as I can be, and still find things pleasing. Pleasure is a very short term experience that ends as soon as the experience, while happiness is something that lasts longer and doesn't require environmental stimulation. While I think that ones mood can be affected by stimulation from outward sources, I don't think that those are the driving factors for ones mood. In my experience (I know, personal bias), it's more like a point based system, little things can hurt or help my mood a little bit but to take my mood from one thing to another takes something huge. I don't accept your definition of happiness, because it fails to define the thing in my brain that lasts longer than the pleasure and can occur after not feeling so awesome without experiencing pleasure. Also, it seems that the term "pleasure" is enough to describe what you're describing.

I dispute that differing personal values and motivations have any baring on this. What might be the overriding motivation for anyone's deportment if it weren't the pursuit of happiness? You claim that avoiding permanent damage is a major motivational force for you. Why? The reason is that the decisions you are making are an attempt to optimise your happiness because avoidance of permanent damage pleases you. Your aggregate happiness is based on damage limitation.

Avoiding permanent damage doesn't please me, having all my body parts that I've become accustomed to is useful to me. Don't try to tell me what I find pleasure in, that is another common mistake people make, not only towards me, but towards other people. You can tell people how you feel and what pleases you, but you can't speak for someone else... unless you have some kind of psychic powers you're not telling me about.

I challenge you to provide an instance of a decision you made that - however altruistic it may have been - was not made under the premise that the ultimate result would please you more than an alternative decision.

I put on white socks instead of black socks, either are equal in my opinion and neither would bring me ill feelings. I make thousands of decisions a day without the consideration of pleasing me or avoiding suffering.

Do we think that Bob Geldof is not swooning at his own achievements? Do we think that Gandhi died miserable? Did Mother Teresa decide to give up because she wanted some time to herself?
The common thread here is that all of these outwardly altruistic individuals derived their happiness from helping others because they valued it above more personal pleasures.

Sounds exactly like personal pleasures to me, and I don't know if they were happy or not, so I won't speculate.

[DeterminedJuliet]

I dunno, I don't see much of a distinction between pleasure and happiness.

pleasure

Pronunciation: /ˈplɛʒə/
noun
[mass noun]
a feeling of happy satisfaction and enjoyment

happy

Pronunciation: /ˈhapi/
adjective (happier, happiest)
feeling or showing pleasure or contentment: