Atheism, neurobiology, and pleasure

[xSilverPhinx]

Domestication of other animals has always worked out well for us, but the domesticated animals really get the short end of the stick.

I don't know...dogs and cats seem to have the life; or perhaps my family just spoils our pets they are treated like furry children.

This^

If you compare how well pets survive compared to their ancestors and close species family members, they certainly didn't get the short end of the stick.

[Attila]

SHOCK! HORROR! The fundamental rule and purpose of life NOW REVEALED!
Cats don't ask; cats take.
Ask any cat owner for confirmation.
Humans are a necessary inconvenience.

[Tank]

One would not be 'detaching' another species from the wild, as long as there was the wild population remains.

True, but I'm still not comfortable with domesticating another species.  Domestication of other animals has always worked out well for us, but the domesticated animals really get the short end of the stick.

Now that's a very interesting point! As we are just vehicles for the reproduction of our genes; which would be considered the most successful species the Timber Wolf or the domestic dog? The dog by far. The symbiotic relationship that the dog has with humans has spread its genome all over the planet. The same could be said for horses, cattle, sheep, goats, chickens etc. In the genetic lottery a genome couldn't win a better prize than being domesticated IMHO. 

[Sandra Craft]

Now that's a very interesting point! As we are just vehicles for the reproduction of our genes; which would be considered the most successful species the Timber Wolf or the domestic dog? The dog by far. The symbiotic relationship that the dog has with humans has spread its genome all over the planet. The same could be said for horses, cattle, sheep, goats, chickens etc. In the genetic lottery a genome couldn't win a better prize than being domesticated IMHO. 

Genetically successful as far as numbers go, but at what cost in quality of life?  There's a breed of dog (can't remember which one, I think one of the bulldogs) who've been so tweaked by humans they can't give birth naturally anymore, some woman in the US has deliberately bred cats with a mutation that makes it impossible for them to walk on their forepaws because she thinks that's cute, and I don't even want to get into factory farm animals. 

There's a Halloween carnival I see on my way home from work that has ponies rides for little kids -- great for the kids, but the ponies spend all day long walking around in a circle.  I think I treat my Deirdre pretty well -- fresh water and healthy food she likes the taste of, litter box kept clean, medical care whenever she needs it, free run of the apartment, plenty of toys and I spend plenty of time playing with her.  I sure wouldn't exchange my lifestyle for hers, tho, or any other domesticated animal.  I can't help thinking the animals we've domesticated would have been better off left in the wild.

[Tank]

Now that's a very interesting point! As we are just vehicles for the reproduction of our genes; which would be considered the most successful species the Timber Wolf or the domestic dog? The dog by far. The symbiotic relationship that the dog has with humans has spread its genome all over the planet. The same could be said for horses, cattle, sheep, goats, chickens etc. In the genetic lottery a genome couldn't win a better prize than being domesticated IMHO. 

Genetically successful as far as numbers go, but at what cost in quality of life?  There's a breed of dog (can't remember which one, I think one of the bulldogs) who've been so tweaked by humans they can't give birth naturally anymore, some woman in the US has deliberately bred cats with a mutation that makes it impossible for them to walk on their forepaws because she thinks that's cute, and I don't even want to get into factory farm animals. 

There's a Halloween carnival I see on my way home from work that has ponies rides for little kids -- great for the kids, but the ponies spend all day long walking around in a circle.  I think I treat my Deirdre pretty well -- fresh water and healthy food she likes the taste of, litter box kept clean, medical care whenever she needs it, free run of the apartment, plenty of toys and I spend plenty of time playing with her.  I sure wouldn't exchange my lifestyle for hers, tho, or any other domesticated animal.  I can't help thinking the animals we've domesticated would have been better off left in the wild.

There are a few points here. Yes from a pure neo-darwinst perspective the quality of life of an organism is irrelevant. Success is gauged purely by the 'head count' of reproducing organisms. It is just one measure of success.

A chap who hunts once said something that made me think. When he was told that what he did was cruel he replied "What's the alternative?". There are no vets in nature. In the wild animals die from illness, accident, old age or being eaten alive.

The treatment of domesticated animals (not pets) appears to be your main concern. In this respect I agree with you that exploiting animals for entertainment in ways that are contra to the behaviour one would normally see in the wild is 'cruel'. For animals bread to be eaten I would again contend that keeping these animals in a way that prevents them exercising their repatiour of natural behaviors would be 'cruel'.

Pets are a slightly different form of domestication. I agree that breeding to the point when natural activities, such as reproduction, become impossible without human intervention constitutes 'cruelty'. The South African Ridgeback is an example of a breed that relies on the deformity of the spine to just the right degree. Many puppies are 'euthanized' at birth as their spines are too deformed.

My two doggies have 1st class private health care, a 4 bedroom 'kennel', good food and regular long off lead walks where they can behave in a pretty good analogy of their natural behaviour. And when their quality of life has degenerated too far they will depart their lives in a sympathetic fashion currently denied to humans.

So given certain caveats I don't have any serious issues with domestication provided that there is still a truly wild population of the un-domesticated ancestors.

[xSilverPhinx]

It's actually the wild population that is more worrying, IMO. Some live in habitats are slowly being destroyed, part of ecosystems that are changing and others are endangered species.

I think there is a real problem with directed breeding, because replacing natural selection with artificial selection will create the sort of animals that can't give birth on their own (that would be the Bulldog, it's head is too big), brains that outgrow their skulls and cause serious health issues, among many others. My sister, for instance, has a Shih Tzu, who as a puppy still has one of his eyes almost popping out of the socket coupled with cataract. 

[DeterminedJuliet]

Now that's a very interesting point! As we are just vehicles for the reproduction of our genes; which would be considered the most successful species the Timber Wolf or the domestic dog? The dog by far. The symbiotic relationship that the dog has with humans has spread its genome all over the planet. The same could be said for horses, cattle, sheep, goats, chickens etc. In the genetic lottery a genome couldn't win a better prize than being domesticated IMHO. 

Genetically successful as far as numbers go, but at what cost in quality of life?  There's a breed of dog (can't remember which one, I think one of the bulldogs) who've been so tweaked by humans they can't give birth naturally anymore, some woman in the US has deliberately bred cats with a mutation that makes it impossible for them to walk on their forepaws because she thinks that's cute, and I don't even want to get into factory farm animals. 

I work at a vet clinic and there are some breeds of dogs that have been bred with so many genetic problems, I feel bad for them for even existing sometimes. Neapolitan Mastiffs, for instance, have been bred with huge folds of skin around their face.



This is done purely for aesthetics, but can cause them all kinds of problems - their skin folds can become frequently infected, their vision can be impaired. All kinds of stuff.

That being said, the average lifespan for a wild dog is probably 5 years or so, whereas for a domesticated dog it's probably 10+ years on average. And I do think they have a better quality of life with us humans - for example, I see a marked difference in health/happiness between indoor cats and outdoor cats. It's always outdoor cats that come in with nasty bite abscesses, feline leukemia and all kinds of horrible stuff.

So, on the whole, I think that humans have probably improved the lives of animals that have become our pets, but I do agree that we have "tinkered" with some of them more than we should have.