Atheism, neurobiology, and pleasure

[Whitney]

Neither "all Christians" nor "all theists" qualify as a conscious agent that can believe anything.  I was only speaking for the rational point of view I would take if I resolved to be an atheist...

So...theists are irrational?  I don't get what you are saying because you aren't being clear.  I still don't see what "value" has to do with being an atheist (aside from atheists not placing value on the idea of god).

[Xjeepguy]

So you're saying being a theist is the only thing that stops you from persuing nothing but pleasure?

[xSilverPhinx]

So you're saying being a theist is the only thing that stops you from persuing nothing but pleasure?

That's what I'm getting from reading this thread too...

If atheism= hedonism, then the only thing that's keeping me from that is theism. That's rather disturbing, really. I hope some people always keep their faith if that's the case.

[Xjeepguy]

I think where the confusion lies is that there is a thought that we are a different species. We are just people like everyone else, we just don't believe in a god. We have jobs, families, children, friends (both theist and atheist) and we eat the same food. We simply live by our own moral code, not one dictated by religion. We arent going to commit crimes, or do drugs because we dont fear hell. There are alot more theists in prison than atheists, thats a fact.

We are no different than you, other than you follow a god and we dont.

[Too Few Lions]

True, there would be a certain theist "residue" that would be screaming that it's valuable to love others, help the poor, care for the sick, visit the prisoner, etc--but as a new atheist that does not believe in the objective value of such activities, I would tamp down this urge and make every effort to follow the path of reason.

Thereafter, I'd use my reason to leverage the latest scientific findings and knowledge of my own preferences to develop a plan to maximize the dopamine production in my lifetime.  What about this approach is non-rational?

Personally, I don't see why 'loving others, helping the poor, caring for the sick, visiting the prisoner, etc' are remotely inherently theistic values.
My girfriend's an atheist and she does all of the above for a job, because being caring is in her nature and it's important to her. If you just do it because you think some big sky daddy wants you to do it or it will get you into heaven, that's just ridiculous.

I would see theistic values as promoting faith over knowledge or reason, rather than the above. They are philosophical values, not theistic ones. There is no inherent link between that sort of behaviour and believing in a god.

And as other people have already pointed out, your original post does seem to suggest that you've wrongly equated atheism to hedonism or epicurianism.

Personally, I'm very much an epicurian, but that's just my nature. Different atheists will assign different values to different things. Plus some religions would also advocate pleasure as the greatest good too, I'm sure worshippers of Dionysus were pretty hedonistic 2000 years ago.

Just because we don't believe there are any objective values doesn't mean atheists are going to behave in a more self-centred way than a theist. The fact that you think you'd behave that way if it wasn't for your religion does seem to suggest you are naturally self-centred and hedonistic!

[OldGit]

Personally, I don't see why 'loving others, helping the poor, caring for the sick, visiting the prisoner, etc' are remotely inherently theistic values.
My girfriend's an atheist and she does all of the above for a job, because being caring is in her nature and it's important to her. If you just do it because you think some big sky daddy wants you to do it or it will get you into heaven, that's just ridiculous.

Agreed.  My wife and I - both atheists - have done volunteer work all our lives.  For the last five years we've been deeply involved with a charity serving disabled people, mainly those with learning difficulties.  As far as I know, most of our volunteers are not christians; certainly I've never heard anyone mention god or going to church.

In general, the charity scene in my area is very active, and I see no sign that religious groups play much of a part.  We have sometimes muttered about the way that church charity events are generally just for church building funds.

So why do we help people if there's no Sky Daddy to inspire us?  Because we can see that's it's a good thing to do.  And if some theist asks me who judges it to be good, I hereby give warning that I shall throw a massive wobbly, even if it gets me banned.

[Attila]

@TFL & Young Git (since I'm older and sillier )
I agree with you both profoundly but I need no convincing of your basic decency. Given the historical and current record of theists, I don't think we need to justify any aspect of our lives to them. Rather the contrary, if any of us were that interested.

[OldGit]

Right, Attila, but I wasn't justifying myself or showing off my virtue, only pointing out that charitable work does not need to be driven by religion. And in our area, mostly isn't.
That seemed to be the direction the thread was going.  BTW where's b4g gone?

[Attila]

Right, Attila, but I wasn't justifying myself or showing off my virtue, only pointing out that charitable work does not need to be driven by religion. And in our area, mostly isn't.
That seemed to be the direction the thread was going.  BTW where's b4g gone?

Rather  burning people at the stake or chopping their heads of is more common for them. They seem to love the death penalty. Sister Teresa got her hots off the suffering of her victims.
In fact, I was thinking of posting exactly what TLS was saying, to wit, anything that we would agree is nice did not originate with any theistic tradition. I'm coming to the conclusion that theists are born with a defective morality gene since they feel they would completely run amok without the guidance of a loving shepherd.
B4G was last seen this morning stalking Recusant on some other threads. He (B4G) doesn't seem to care for me very much. Just as well.

[Tank]

Is the sin of a theist worse than that of an atheist? The theist is not only commiting the sin but also ignoring their God. Therefore, sin-for-sin a theist is more evil that an atheist.

[Attila]

Is the sin of a theist worse than that of an atheist? The theist is not only commiting the sin but also ignoring their God. Therefore, sin-for-sin a theist is more evil that an atheist.

That's all very well CareBear but would it fit on a bumper sticker?
How about Theism is sooooooooooooooooooooooo lame......

[Too Few Lions]

Is the sin of a theist worse than that of an atheist? The theist is not only commiting the sin but also ignoring their God. Therefore, sin-for-sin a theist is more evil that an atheist.

'Sin', I don't believe in that either. I like Christopher Marlowe's take on it - 'I count religion but a childish toy, and hold there is no sin but ignorance.'

[Asmodean]

"I want to do that which will benefit my species"

"We should promote a sustainable environment for future generations"

"The progress of science is essential to a prosperous future"

Those ARE all highly subjetive values and goals. Nothing at all wrong with that - especially with trying to reshape your immediate surroundings to suit you better.

If one with an atheist, subjective-value worldview is reasoning clearly, why wouldn't that translate to attempting to maximize the dopamine production of his/her life?

Reverse argument. Why would or even should it?

What if dopamine is only a bi-product of achieving what you have in sights..?

And you know what..? You don't usually even need a better reason than "Because I can".

EDIT: a "for instance", I did not go bungee jumping to score adrenalin. I went out of curiosity to experience the sensation of falling off a bridge. Why would I want to experience falling off a bridge? Because I can do it AND do it relatively safely. Adrenalin was a welcome biproduct, but not a gole in itself.

[Too Few Lions]

Right, Attila, but I wasn't justifying myself or showing off my virtue, only pointing out that charitable work does not need to be driven by religion. And in our area, mostly isn't.
That seemed to be the direction the thread was going.  BTW where's b4g gone?

Rather  burning people at the stake or chopping their heads of is more common for them. They seem to love the death penalty.

I was thinking exactly the same thing. The history of Christianity is filled with far more torture, murder and general intolerance than charitable good work.

In fact, I was thinking of posting exactly what TLS was saying, to wit, anything that we would agree is nice did not originate with any theistic tradition. I'm coming to the conclusion that theists are born with a defective morality gene since they feel they would completely run amok without the guidance of a loving shepherd.
B4G was last seen this morning stalking Recusant on some other threads. He (B4G) doesn't seem to care for me very much. Just as well.

I totally agree again Attila, some of us don't need a make-believe sky daddy in order to behave well towards our fellow humans.

[Attila]

I totally agree again Attila, some of us don't need a make-believe sky daddy in order to behave well towards our fellow humans.

And not just fellow humans, girl humans too. Also kittens and spiders, my 2 favourite non-humans.