Does growing up a theist affect your intellectual makeup?

[Earthling]

I am going to be completely honest here. I feel like a complete dumbass on this forum sometimes. I never studied philosophy, or physics or theology, and I guess I have some trouble understanding some of the discussion on this forum sometimes. I consider myself to be somewhat intelligent, mainly in other arenas like mechanics and electronics, but I honestly think that being religious most of my life has stunted my intellectual growth when it comes to the above mentioned studies. Let's be honest here, how many religious parents want their kids studying something that will likely make them question the religion they are trying to ingrain into them? I have already noticed the people who seem to have the best arguments and the most insight on this forum are life long atheists. Maybe being an atheist makes one lean heavily toward the sciences at a young age? Maybe theism makes one lean away from the sciences? This was just a thought I had on my way home from work today.

So what do you all think?

Well I was raised an Atheist and that, I think, had certain advantages. Like my parents never told me there was a Santa Clause, or Easter Bunny. We celebrated Christmas, Easter, Thanksgivings, Birthdays and Halloween without the nonsense just for fun. Also I wasn't given heaven (or hell) as an explanation for death. The truth was best. Living in the Bible belt I was able to witness first hand the hypocrisy of religious people, the ridiculousness of religious superstition. I was also raised, even very young, that there were no words that are obscene. Intellectuals and the religious will tell you that certain words shouldn't be used in polite society and yet can't tell you anything about those words and why they think they are obscene.

That last thing has probably caused me more problems than advantage.

However, as an atheist, that is someone who didn't believe in God, I knew nothing about God until I educated myself in my mid to late twenties. I think that the idea that theists are less educated, logical, intelligent, smart is sort of a false sense of superiority the atheists like to think of themselves as.

[Good and Godless]

I think that the idea that theists are less educated, logical, intelligent, smart is sort of a false sense of superiority the atheists like to think of themselves as.

So, do you think that theism is logical?  If not, why do you think so many intelligent, educated people are theists?  As a fairly recent atheist (former Christian), I know what it is like to convince yourself of the false logic of certain beliefs.  However, I continue to be boggled that educated people can grow to be so old and still so religious.  I "deconverted" when I was about 30, and I'm kind of embarrassed by how long it took me.

[Earthling]

I think that the idea that theists are less educated, logical, intelligent, smart is sort of a false sense of superiority the atheists like to think of themselves as.

So, do you think that theism is logical?  If not, why do you think so many intelligent, educated people are theists?  As a fairly recent atheist (former Christian), I know what it is like to convince yourself of the false logic of certain beliefs.  However, I continue to be boggled that educated people can grow to be so old and still so religious.  I "deconverted" when I was about 30, and I'm kind of embarrassed by how long it took me.

Well, I rejected it myself when I was about 5 or 6. I later studied religion as a sort of academic fascination with the human ability to take something potentially good and completely muck it up. Just like they do with love, money, government, law, justice, politics, science, music, art, sports, fashion, television, radio, consumerism, etc. etc.

I think most religious people are in it for the cultural, traditional and social aspects. When looked at from that point of view the knowledge becomes ritualized until completely obscured just as sure as politics corrupts. I know people who are Jehovah's Witnesses, who have been tortured and beaten as missionaries and have proclaimed the "truth" for 40 plus years and who woke up one day and said: "What the hell are we doing?" and walked away from it.  But I also know of many respected scientist who are theistic in that they have expressed belief in Creation.

• Alberts, Louw (physicist)
• Artist, Russell Charles (biologist)
• Barton, D.H.R. (professor of chemistry)
• Baumgardner, John R. (geophysicist)
• Behe, Michael J. (biochemist)
• Block, David (astronomer)
• Collins, Francis (molecular biologist)
• Compton, Arthur H. (Nobel prize winner)
• Davies, Paul (physicist)
• Dembski, William A. (mathematician)
• Dirac, P. (mathematician)
• Dyson, Freeman (physicist)
• Faraday, Michael (physicist)
• Flew, Antony (philosopher)
• František, Vyskočil (neurophysiology professor)
• Galileo Galilei (mathematician, physicist)
• Giertych, Maciej (geneticist)
• Gish, Duane T. (biochemist)
• Hernández-Lemus, Enrique (professor)
• Hooker, Worthington, M.D.
• Hoyle, Fred (astrophysicist)
• Hutton, Dr. James H. (past president of medical societies)
• Jeans, Sir James (mathematician, physicist, astronomer)
• Kelvin, Lord (physicist)
• Klopsteg, Dr. Paul E. (past president of science association)
• Knobloch, Irving (natural scientist)
• Kreider, Marlin (physiologist)
• Krogdahl, Wasley (astronomer, physicist)
• Lennox, John (professor of mathematics)
• Lipson, H. S. (Fellow of the Royal Society)
• Newton, Sir Isaac (physicist)
• O'Keefe, Dr. John A.
• Pasteur, Louis (biochemist)
• Phillips, William D. (physicist)
• Polkinghorne, John (physicist)
• Rubbia, Carlo (physicist)
• Sandage, Allan (astronomer)
• Schroeder, Dr. Gerald (nuclear physicist)
• Tanaka, Kenneth (planetary geologist)
• von Braun, Wernher (physicist)
• Weinberg, Steven
• White, Robert (brain surgeon)

[Attila]

Intellectuals and the religious will tell you that certain words shouldn't be used in polite society and yet can't tell you anything about those words and why they think they are obscene.

Ever full of surprises, aren't we? I admit you have me totally stumped here. Can you provide some examples of words that "intellectuals" tell you shouldn't be used in polite society? Actual citations might be helpful or is asking for evidence some form of propaganda in your view? Just an aside: I don't think intellectuals accept the notion of "polite society" but I'm sure you know more about them than I do.

[Earthling]

Intellectuals and the religious will tell you that certain words shouldn't be used in polite society and yet can't tell you anything about those words and why they think they are obscene.

Ever full of surprises, aren't we? I admit you have me totally stumped here. Can you provide some examples of words that "intellectuals" tell you shouldn't be used in polite society? Actual citations might be helpful or is asking for evidence some form of propaganda in your view? Just an aside: I don't think intellectuals accept the notion of "polite society" but I'm sure you know more about them than I do.

Well, you see, I'm just this guy, you know? I kind of have to worm myself through this shit and hope that I stumble upon some crumb of wisdom from the likes of you. Are you familiar with the term fuck? I think you are, like the term fuck off? Yeaaah . . .

Psssttt!! Now I have it on authority that fuck isn't an anachronism For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge but it might be a reference to a planting of a seed.

Now as you may know. I'm a person of faith, unreasonable, an' not s' much given properly to the notion of book learnin' n' such AND I MUST ADMIT there was a time in my dark past when the weed was plenty and the whiskey river took at least a good portion of my mind downstream, but boy howdy I sure would like for you to go on and on and on about etymology of fuck!

WHOOO Yeah!

Consider me, for the moment in the words of Brian Warner, the god of fuck.

Twas him, Marilyn, who also said "It ain't the one true God but the God of the people I hate."

Enlighten, please, if you will, this old rock n roll history museum unlike the proverbial old kodger? For me?

But hear ye this as well! The first prophecy of Jesus Christ is commonly overlooked. It is Genesis 3:15. And remember this as well if you are able, that verse mentions the seed. And as Jesus himself said, the founding of the world was upon the blood of Able. Er, Abel. Luke 11:50-51. The Greek word he used was katabole, which literally means conceiving of seed in human conception. A "throwing down of seed," to be literal as the founding of the world. Hebrews 11:11 Paul uses a similar term.  Ladies and gentlemen . . . The Throwing Down Of The Seed!

[Attila]

Thanks for all that, E-ling. Was that intended as an answer? I confess I understood very little of your post, stream of consciousness not being my thing. However I am impressed by your acute analysis of the word "fuck".  So I guess there are no words that intellectuals don't utter in polite society -- another misunderstanding I guess. 

[Earthling]

Thanks for all that, E-ling. Was that intended as an answer? I am impressed by your acute analysis of the word "fuck".  So I guess there are no words that intellectuals don't utter in polite society.

Cunt comes to mind. Wankel Rotary Engine. Nigger? Umm . . . by the way I thought fuck was one.

Wanker. No that wasn't one I was calling you by a term of endearment.

I get all dizzy if you so much as mention the word midget; and antique furniture. I can't get near a piece of antique furniture. I start to shake all over and drool ever so slightly. Rub shit in my hair and contemplate a Ron Paul REVOLUTION MOTHER FUCKERS!

Yeah!

Well its about time, don't you think?! Fractional Reserve Banking! The Federal Reserve! Department Of Homeland Security! The European Union and the New World Order. North American Union.

The name Rothschild. That's another one. 

The Bilderbergs. I don't know how to spell that one.

Back to the American Constitution! This is a republic.

Those are the only ones I can think of right now.

[Attila]

Thank you for that E-ling. That explains things nicely. We don't seem to hang with the same bunch. I have zero experience with intellectuals cause I've never had contact with anyone fitting your descriptions. Talk about coming from two different worlds, maybe two different planets might be more apt. If I might try your patience again, you mentioned that I espouse[sic] my propaganda. Stupid me, I didn't think you could espouse propaganda but maybe that's more propaganda.  Maybe I was doing "subconscious espousing" in the sense of George Harrison's subconscious plagiarism with his song ... wait for it ... My Sweet Lord,  meaning that I did it without meaning to. In any event could you give me an example of this espousing? At least then I'll know it when I'm doing it. Feel free to indulge in your stream of consciousness style. I'm sure James Joyce is turning over in his grave with envy. (What a cunt, eh?)

[Siz]

Thank you for that E-ling. That explains things nicely. We don't seem to hang with the same bunch. I have zero experience with intellectuals cause I've never had contact with anyone fitting your descriptions. Talk about coming from two different worlds, maybe two different planets might be more apt. If I might try your patience again, you mentioned that I espouse[sic] my propaganda. Stupid me, I didn't think you could espouse propaganda but maybe that's more propaganda.  Maybe I was doing "subconscious espousing" in the sense of George Harrison's subconscious plagiarism with his song ... wait for it ... My Sweet Lord,  meaning that I did it without meaning to. In any event could you give me an example of this espousing? At least then I'll know it when I'm doing it. Feel free to indulge in your stream of consciousness style. I'm sure James Joyce is turning over in his grave with envy. (What a cunt, eh?)

Ouch!

[Xjeepguy]

I think that the idea that theists are less educated, logical, intelligent, smart is sort of a false sense of superiority the atheists like to think of themselves as.

I think you have misunderstood my point. Not saying that I am any smarter than a theist (called myself a dumbass, remember?) My initial question was hinting at wether theists limit themselves to learning that did not threaten their ideals, therefore limit their overall understanding of certain sciences. I speak from experience here, I was directed away from evolutionary studies, as well as any readings that could sway ones faith, only to learn now that it stunted my intellectual growth.

[Attila]

I think that the idea that theists are less educated, logical, intelligent, smart is sort of a false sense of superiority the atheists like to think of themselves as.

I think you have misunderstood my point. Not saying that I am any smarter than a theist (called myself a dumbass, remember?) My initial question was hinting at wether theists limit themselves to learning that did not threaten their ideals, therefore limit their overall understanding of certain sciences. I speak from experience here, I was directed away from evolutionary studies, as well as any readings that could sway ones faith, only to learn now that it stunted my intellectual growth.

I don't think you have any cause for worry. You seem as intelligent and interesting as anyone. Remember the fellow traveller of atheism/ignosticism is scepticism. If most people believe something, it's usually false. Don't trust anyone least of all me. Check your facts and check other people's facts. Take nothing on faith and you'll never need to take a back seat to anyone. Try to have fun too. 

[OldGit]

Just BTW

fuck (v.)
until recently a difficult word to trace, in part because it was taboo to the editors of the original OED when the "F" volume was compiled, 1893-97. Written form only attested from early 16c. OED 2nd edition cites 1503, in the form fukkit; earliest appearance of current spelling is 1535 -- "Bischops ... may fuck thair fill and be vnmaryit" [Sir David Lyndesay, "Ane Satyre of the Thrie Estaits"], but presumably it is a much more ancient word than that, simply one that wasn't written in the kind of texts that have survived from O.E. and M.E. Buck cites proper name John le Fucker from 1278. The word apparently is hinted at in a scurrilous 15c. poem, titled "Flen flyys," written in bastard Latin and M.E. The relevant line reads:
Non sunt in celi
quia fuccant uuiuys of heli
"They [the monks] are not in heaven because they fuck the wives of [the town of] Ely." Fuccant is pseudo-Latin, and in the original it is written in cipher. The earliest examples of the word otherwise are from Scottish, which suggests a Scandinavian origin, perhaps from a word akin to Norwegian dialectal fukka "copulate," or Swedish dialectal focka "copulate, strike, push," and fock "penis." Another theory traces it to M.E. fyke, fike "move restlessly, fidget," which also meant "dally, flirt," and probably is from a general North Sea Germanic word; cf. M.Du. fokken, Ger. ficken "fuck," earlier "make quick movements to and fro, flick," still earlier "itch, scratch;" the vulgar sense attested from 16c. This would parallel in sense the usual M.E. slang term for "have sexual intercourse," swive, from O.E. swifan "to move lightly over, sweep" (see swivel). But OED remarks these "cannot be shown to be related" to the English word. Chronology and phonology rule out Shipley's attempt to derive it from M.E. firk "to press hard, beat."
Germanic words of similar form (f + vowel + consonant) and meaning 'copulate' are numerous. One of them is G. ficken. They often have additional senses, especially 'cheat,' but their basic meaning is 'move back and forth.' ... Most probably, fuck is a borrowing from Low German and has no cognates outside Germanic. [Liberman]

[Attila]

Just BTW

fuck (v.)
until recently a difficult word to trace, in part because it was taboo to the editors of the original OED when the "F" volume was compiled, 1893-97. Written form only attested from early 16c. OED 2nd edition cites 1503, in the form fukkit; earliest appearance of current spelling is 1535 -- "Bischops ... may fuck thair fill and be vnmaryit" [Sir David Lyndesay, "Ane Satyre of the Thrie Estaits"], but presumably it is a much more ancient word than that, simply one that wasn't written in the kind of texts that have survived from O.E. and M.E. Buck cites proper name John le Fucker from 1278. The word apparently is hinted at in a scurrilous 15c. poem, titled "Flen flyys," written in bastard Latin and M.E. The relevant line reads:
Non sunt in celi
quia fuccant uuiuys of heli
"They [the monks] are not in heaven because they fuck the wives of [the town of] Ely." Fuccant is pseudo-Latin, and in the original it is written in cipher. The earliest examples of the word otherwise are from Scottish, which suggests a Scandinavian origin, perhaps from a word akin to Norwegian dialectal fukka "copulate," or Swedish dialectal focka "copulate, strike, push," and fock "penis." Another theory traces it to M.E. fyke, fike "move restlessly, fidget," which also meant "dally, flirt," and probably is from a general North Sea Germanic word; cf. M.Du. fokken, Ger. ficken "fuck," earlier "make quick movements to and fro, flick," still earlier "itch, scratch;" the vulgar sense attested from 16c. This would parallel in sense the usual M.E. slang term for "have sexual intercourse," swive, from O.E. swifan "to move lightly over, sweep" (see swivel). But OED remarks these "cannot be shown to be related" to the English word. Chronology and phonology rule out Shipley's attempt to derive it from M.E. firk "to press hard, beat."
Germanic words of similar form (f + vowel + consonant) and meaning 'copulate' are numerous. One of them is G. ficken. They often have additional senses, especially 'cheat,' but their basic meaning is 'move back and forth.' ... Most probably, fuck is a borrowing from Low German and has no cognates outside Germanic. [Liberman]

Excellent, OG. But is it too late? I hope you've kept a copy ready for reposting should the need arise.

[Sandra Craft]

(What a cunt, eh?)

Is the English use of "cunt" the same as the American use of "asshole"?  It seems to me they are, esp. when I'm listening to Jim Jefferies, but I'm not really sure.

[Ildiko]

(What a cunt, eh?)

Is the English use of "cunt" the same as the American use of "asshole"?  It seems to me they are, esp. when I'm listening to Jim Jefferies, but I'm not really sure.

Jim Jefferies is Australian.

I don't know because I don't know how "bad" asshole is in American English. All I can say is that "cunt" is at the extreme end - offhand I can't think of a "worse" word.