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Does growing up a theist affect your intellectual makeup?

Started by Xjeepguy, October 24, 2011, 01:13:51 PM

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Xjeepguy

I am going to be completely honest here. I feel like a complete dumbass on this forum sometimes. I never studied philosophy, or physics or theology, and I guess I have some trouble understanding some of the discussion on this forum sometimes. I consider myself to be somewhat intelligent, mainly in other arenas like mechanics and electronics, but I honestly think that being religious most of my life has stunted my intellectual growth when it comes to the above mentioned studies. Let's be honest here, how many religious parents want their kids studying something that will likely make them question the religion they are trying to ingrain into them? I have already noticed the people who seem to have the best arguments and the most insight on this forum are life long atheists. Maybe being an atheist makes one lean heavily toward the sciences at a young age? Maybe theism makes one lean away from the sciences? This was just a thought I had on my way home from work today.

So what do you all think?
If I were re-born 1000 times, it would be as an atheist 1000 times. -Heisenberg

Norfolk And Chance

Quote from: Xjeepguy on October 24, 2011, 01:13:51 PM
I am going to be completely honest here. I feel like a complete dumbass on this forum sometimes. I never studied philosophy, or physics or theology, and I guess I have some trouble understanding some of the discussion on this forum sometimes. I consider myself to be somewhat intelligent, mainly in other arenas like mechanics and electronics, but I honestly think that being religious most of my life has stunted my intellectual growth when it comes to the above mentioned studies. Let's be honest here, how many religious parents want their kids studying something that will likely make them question the religion they are trying to ingrain into them? I have already noticed the people who seem to have the best arguments and the most insight on this forum are life long atheists. Maybe being an atheist makes one lean heavily toward the sciences at a young age? Maybe theism makes one lean away from the sciences? This was just a thought I had on my way home from work today.

So what do you all think?

There is something in what you say. My opinion anyway.
Reality is the stuff that doesn't go away when you stop believing in it ~ Matt Dillahunty

Siz

#2
Quote from: Xjeepguy on October 24, 2011, 01:13:51 PM
I am going to be completely honest here. I feel like a complete dumbass on this forum sometimes. I never studied philosophy, or physics or theology, and I guess I have some trouble understanding some of the discussion on this forum sometimes. I consider myself to be somewhat intelligent, mainly in other arenas like mechanics and electronics, but I honestly think that being religious most of my life has stunted my intellectual growth when it comes to the above mentioned studies. Let's be honest here, how many religious parents want their kids studying something that will likely make them question the religion they are trying to ingrain into them? I have already noticed the people who seem to have the best arguments and the most insight on this forum are life long atheists. Maybe being an atheist makes one lean heavily toward the sciences at a young age? Maybe theism makes one lean away from the sciences? This was just a thought I had on my way home from work today.

So what do you all think?

I think that might be true to the extent of physical brain make up.

If you consider the brain as being similar to any other muscle in the body, you can imagine that its gets stronger with use and being overstretched. Neuro-connections in the brain are made (and atrophied) every day. If you are not using the brain-muscle in studying or comprehending sciences, then these functions may not be as developed as in the brain of the lifelong student. Our brains develop by creating these neuro connections.

So in the physical sense the theist brain, perhaps having not been so used to examining science and atheist philosophy, is less skilled because the required neuro connections are less numerous.

But just like a muscle, you can strengthen (make more of) your neuro connections with exercise.

When one sleeps on the floor one need not worry about falling out of bed - Anton LaVey

The universe is a cold, uncaring void. The key to happiness isn't a search for meaning, it's to just keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually you'll be dead!

Tank

Quote from: Xjeepguy on October 24, 2011, 01:13:51 PM
I am going to be completely honest here. I feel like a complete dumbass on this forum sometimes. I never studied philosophy, or physics or theology, and I guess I have some trouble understanding some of the discussion on this forum sometimes. I consider myself to be somewhat intelligent, mainly in other arenas like mechanics and electronics, but I honestly think that being religious most of my life has stunted my intellectual growth when it comes to the above mentioned studies. Let's be honest here, how many religious parents want their kids studying something that will likely make them question the religion they are trying to ingrain into them? I have already noticed the people who seem to have the best arguments and the most insight on this forum are life long atheists. Maybe being an atheist makes one lean heavily toward the sciences at a young age? Maybe theism makes one lean away from the sciences? This was just a thought I had on my way home from work today.

So what do you all think?
Don't worry, you're not the only one. Gawen, TFL and many others leave my head in a whirl!

My thoughts on reading your post was that children brought up in families where the parents encourage the widest possible education of the highest possible quality are likely to be advantaged over those with narrow poor-quality education. Parents who activly indoctrinate their children in their brand of institutionalised superstition will undobtedly build up intellectual barriers and provide an impoverished intellectual environment for their children.

What is the use of science, except at the pragmatic level, if one knows all the answers anyway?
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Siz

Quote from: Xjeepguy on October 24, 2011, 01:13:51 PM
I am going to be completely honest here. I feel like a complete dumbass on this forum sometimes. I never studied philosophy, or physics or theology, and I guess I have some trouble understanding some of the discussion on this forum sometimes. I consider myself to be somewhat intelligent, mainly in other arenas like mechanics and electronics, but I honestly think that being religious most of my life has stunted my intellectual growth when it comes to the above mentioned studies. Let's be honest here, how many religious parents want their kids studying something that will likely make them question the religion they are trying to ingrain into them? I have already noticed the people who seem to have the best arguments and the most insight on this forum are life long atheists. Maybe being an atheist makes one lean heavily toward the sciences at a young age? Maybe theism makes one lean away from the sciences? This was just a thought I had on my way home from work today.

So what do you all think?

Or maybe the same propensity for sciences is the original reason for the atheism. I.e. a brain with a knack for sciences is more likely to conclude a world view of a universe without god.

When one sleeps on the floor one need not worry about falling out of bed - Anton LaVey

The universe is a cold, uncaring void. The key to happiness isn't a search for meaning, it's to just keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually you'll be dead!

xSilverPhinx

I've come across some psychologist who said that atheism is definitely more cognitively demanding than accepting a theistic belief. You could say that theism is the path of least resistance (that's why I don't wholly accept that atheism is the default position).

People need to train their critical thinking also, and religious people who aren't allowed to think critically will have a rather stunted capacity.

What also comes to mind is just how often and how easily religious people think in simplistic black-and-white, create dichotomies where they don't exist and simplify a complex thing to absurdity.

I think the relationship between intelligence and religiosity is fascinating :P Though there does seem to be a higher correlation of higher IQ with atheism, I don't know just how much of a causal factor it is. Also, since people are multifaceted, people with high IQs can be extremely religious. Why that is is a mystery to me. ???
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Whitney

I don't think so...I know many ex-theists who are very good at sounding like smarty pants concerning philosophy and the sciences.

Tank

Quote from: Whitney on October 24, 2011, 03:48:50 PM
I don't think so...I know many ex-theists who are very good at sounding like smarty pants concerning philosophy and the sciences.
And also many theists use science and phylosophy in the same way a drunk uses a lamp post, for support rather than illumination  ;)
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Xjeepguy

QuoteOr maybe the same propensity for sciences is the original reason for the atheism. I.e. a brain with a knack for sciences is more likely to conclude a world view of a universe without god.

This is a good point as well. Perhaps intelligence begets atheism. If nothing else, I feel better for eventually finding the correct path. lol

One thing that is interesting, I find myself reading, or desiring to read a lot more since I rejected theism, as well as a genuine thirst for knowledge that I have not felt since I was in grade school. Sometimes I think it is because before I would avoid activities that would make me question faith. Kind of like a self preservation for the faithful. Maybe I am over analyzing this?
If I were re-born 1000 times, it would be as an atheist 1000 times. -Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Quote from: Tank on October 24, 2011, 04:31:50 PM
Quote from: Whitney on October 24, 2011, 03:48:50 PM
I don't think so...I know many ex-theists who are very good at sounding like smarty pants concerning philosophy and the sciences.
And also many theists use science and phylosophy in the same way a drunk uses a lamp post, for support rather than illumination  ;)
That's great. I'm taking that...

I find it dumbfounding when I come across a person who I find to be truly intelligent that believes in God. It just makes me think that people can put up monster scores on standardized tests, get a PhD from a top school, and still not 'get it'.

I like what ScissorLegs said. If you don't use certain parts of your brain, they definitely go into a state of atrophy. But if you start using it again (or for the first time) you find that those abilities do come back. I would be surprised if someone who picked up science or philosophy later in life would be able to advance their knowledge as quickly as someone who'd been studying those things for most of their life.
"No one I think is in my tree, I mean it must be high or low"-John Lennon

Good and Godless

I think that since I've become an atheist I have had to train myself out of some of the logical fallacies that go along with religion.  For so long, I thought faith was a virtue.  Now, I have to remind myself that it isn't.  It is blindness.  It is the practice of talking yourself into something that really doesn't make any sense, no matter how much you want it to be true.  I agree about the reading, though.  I am reading so much about religion and science and atheism.  I recommend The Portable Atheist, which is a collection of essential readings written by skeptics throughout history.  It covers religion, science, philosophy, morality, etc.  I'm about halfway through.

In regards to the idea that atheists are more intelligent...well, I'd like to think so.  However, I've come across many very intelligent people who have faith in the ridiculous.  I wrote this story in another thread somewhere, but it is relevant here.  My husband is an ER doc.  One of the other residents in his class was a Mormon.  According to most of the other doctors, he was also one of the sharpest guys in the hospital.  However, I had a conversation with him in which he seriously told me how Mormons have lots of kids because they believe it is their duty to give the most souls the best chance at salvation by bringing them into a Mormon home.  I found that just so nutso!  It's really very perplexing!
"A man's ethical behaviour should be based effectively on sympathy, education and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." -Albert Einstein
http://goodandgodless.blogspot.com/

Siz

Quote from: Heisenberg on October 25, 2011, 03:10:34 AM
I would be surprised if someone who picked up science or philosophy later in life would be able to advance their knowledge as quickly as someone who'd been studying those things for most of their life.

Agreed.

I do think that the impact of peer (or family) pressure cannot be underestimated here though. Regardless of intelligence, or a consideration for logic, a person is going to be swayed predominantly by what is experienced around him/her. A learned acceptance of the requirement for 'faith' is a powerful weapon against a less-than-conscientiously logical mind. And a conscientiously logical mind is not developed within religious communities.

When one sleeps on the floor one need not worry about falling out of bed - Anton LaVey

The universe is a cold, uncaring void. The key to happiness isn't a search for meaning, it's to just keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually you'll be dead!

Crow

Quote from: Heisenberg on October 25, 2011, 03:10:34 AM
I find it dumbfounding when I come across a person who I find to be truly intelligent that believes in God. It just makes me think that people can put up monster scores on standardized tests, get a PhD from a top school, and still not 'get it'.

This quote from 'Hard-boiled Wonderland and the End of the World' always comes to mind when I encounter this. "I always say - a prejudice on my part, I'm sure - you can tell a lot about a person's character from his choice of sofa. Sofas constitute a realm inviolate unto themselves. This, however, is something that only those who have grown up sitting on good sofas will appreciate. It's like growing up reading good books or listening to good music. One good sofa breeds another good sofa; one bad sofa breeds another bad sofa. That's how it goes."
Retired member.

DeterminedJuliet

I was a theist for the first 20 years of my life, or so. I hope that doesn't make me handicapped :(
"We've thought of life by analogy with a journey, with pilgrimage which had a serious purpose at the end, and the THING was to get to that end; success, or whatever it is, or maybe heaven after you're dead. But, we missed the point the whole way along; It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing, or dance, while the music was being played.

Ildiko

Quote from: Heisenberg on October 25, 2011, 03:10:34 AM
I would be surprised if someone who picked up science or philosophy later in life would be able to advance their knowledge as quickly as someone who'd been studying those things for most of their life.

Agreed, but this goes for pretty much anything, not just science and philosophy. It's just easier to learn stuff when you're younger.

DeterminedJuliet wrote:

QuoteI was a theist for the first 20 years of my life, or so. I hope that doesn't make me handicapped.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't, just as I'm pretty sure Xjeepguy isn't a "dumbass" - being anything more than "pretty sure" would require faith.  ;)  I know 5/8 of fuck all about quantum theory and even less about philosophy.  If anyone thinks that makes me stupid, well, come outside and say that!