[Flash]I HAVE CONVERTED!!!

[Siz]

So Atilla, do you still not care if there's a god? Or do you now care, but still aren't prepared to commit to a belief in a god of not? Or is it that, before you did really care and were just pretending not to and now you accept that it's worth caring about, enough to give yourself a different title? Or do you now think that what you believed before was not what you believed when you thought that it was more appropriate to believe what you said I thought you believed?

...Well...?

Hi SL, So I'm on the spot, am I? Well, do your worst. I can handle it now that I'm an Iggy. Do be totally honest, I still don't care but I understand that this is due in great part because I don't understand the concept of god. That's pretty much the standard ignostic approach to the issue. I think if you went through my back-posts on the subject I did bring up this issue before my conversion mentioning that I didn't not feel the concept of god was well defined and no one would know a god from a pile of dog pooh on the pavement. I don't know if you're angry or just teasing me. I think maybe you're not taking this thread in the spirit that it was created or maybe I'm too thick to know when someone is taking the piss. Seriously, I was curious about my own attitude toward the issue (wondering if it was even important) when I joined this forum and thanks to all of you I see that there are kindred spirits (pardon the expression  ). It is quite fun to realise some pretty cool people like Ayer and Drange hold very similar views to my own. In the spirit of full disclosure, I confess that I have yet to hear a coherent view on why anyone cares if there's a god or not.

How was that?
ciao,
Attila

Just teasing! You've gotta mock an Anarchist turncoat who loves his labels...

Congratulations on your ReEnlightenment.

[xSilverPhinx]

We must come up with some sort of rite of passage for this...what do you suggest?

[Stevil]

Reasons not to be apathetic.

Some actual Theist quotes

as I see it as a good parent the government should set laws in place that guide their children (citizens) to make the right moral choices

Rights are given by God, there is no right to gay marriage. There is no right to an abortion. There is no right to have sex outside marriage. There is no right to porn. There is no right to be immoral. The government is duty bound as a servent of God to enforce natural and moral law and to oppose those things which are counter to nature and morality.

The threat is real and it must be fought.

[Siz]

Reasons not to be apathetic.

Some actual Theist quotes

as I see it as a good parent the government should set laws in place that guide their children (citizens) to make the right moral choices

Rights are given by God, there is no right to gay marriage. There is no right to an abortion. There is no right to have sex outside marriage. There is no right to porn. There is no right to be immoral. The government is duty bound as a servent of God to enforce natural and moral law and to oppose those things which are counter to nature and morality.

The threat is real and it must be fought.

Correct. However, what you're arguing here is not that you care if there's a god, it's that you care what the religious do with THEIR belief.

Down at it's most basic level, I accept Attilas assertion that there is no reason to care... unless we postulate the preposterous existence of the vindictive power-monkey god of the Bible, Qur'an etc...

I think what Attila argues is that any god who it is reasonable to believe exists would not be likely to affect our lives in any way. Therefore, why should we care?

[Attila]

Just teasing! You've gotta mock an Anarchist turncoat who loves his labels...

Congratulations on your ReEnlightenment.

I always considered my position more radical (extreme is better) than the standard atheistic one. The whole question of god's existence is  unintelligible nonsense. There is no debate, no dialogue on that point. Since this position aligns well with ignostic thinking and they came first so as a moral, truth-fearing person, I render unto philosophy what is theirs.
Anyway I'm always a sucker for a sense of humour.
cheers

[Attila]

Reasons not to be apathetic.

Some actual Theist quotes

as I see it as a good parent the government should set laws in place that guide their children (citizens) to make the right moral choices

Rights are given by God, there is no right to gay marriage. There is no right to an abortion. There is no right to have sex outside marriage. There is no right to porn. There is no right to be immoral. The government is duty bound as a servent of God to enforce natural and moral law and to oppose those things which are counter to nature and morality.

The threat is real and it must be fought.

I must have expressed myself poorly for which I apologise. I do not now, nor I have ever believed that religion or the public expression of faith-based views to be anything other than the paragon of evil. There is nothing good, rien, nada, niente, nichts,  in religion. I hope that clarifies my views on the subject. I also hope we can agree that that issue is separate from the one about the existence of god. It was this latter issue that I was indifferent to and had nothing to do with the palpable evil perpetrated by theists and religious institutions that you speak of.

[Siz]

Reasons not to be apathetic.

Some actual Theist quotes

as I see it as a good parent the government should set laws in place that guide their children (citizens) to make the right moral choices

Rights are given by God, there is no right to gay marriage. There is no right to an abortion. There is no right to have sex outside marriage. There is no right to porn. There is no right to be immoral. The government is duty bound as a servent of God to enforce natural and moral law and to oppose those things which are counter to nature and morality.

The threat is real and it must be fought.

I must have expressed myself poorly for which I apologise. I do not now, nor I have ever believed that religion or the public expression of faith-based views to be anything other than the paragon of evil. There is nothing good, rien, nada, niente, nichts,  in religion. I hope that clarifies my views on the subject. I also hope we can agree that that issue is separate from the one about the existence of good. It was this latter issue that I was indifferent to and had nothing to do with the palpable evil perpetrated by theists and religious institutions that you speak of.

Attila, can you clarify (and modify your post if necessary) that you meant "god", not "good"...

[Attila]

Cheers for that, SL. I meant god (with a lower case "g"). "good" certainly exists as in "good wine" (e.g. ribolla gialla)
That is the ultimate good for which there can be no better. It is written, "he that taketh not of the wine shall be damned forever".

[Attila]

We must come up with some sort of rite of passage for this...what do you suggest?

A BIG PARTY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All ignostics are invited but atheists can come too. 

[Attila]

This is truly funny. As I write this series of posts the rainstorm that has been afflicting Gorizia all morning has turned into a HUGE thunderstorm with thunderbolts and lightning (yeah, I know ...very very frightening). Do you think someone is trying to tell me something (another boom goes boom in the background)
???

[Attila]

I think what Attila argues is that any god who it is reasonable to believe exists would not be likely to affect our lives in any way. Therefore, why should we care?

But it's unlikely that such a being would be considered as god/good. I now think (hence my conversion) that the simpler version is better. There is no intelligible notion of god. Any intelligible notion would probably be rejected the the believers. Isn't that what the common view that god is ineffable is all about? "Incapable of being expressed; indescribable or unutterable."

[Siz]

I think what Attila argues is that any god who it is reasonable to believe exists would not be likely to affect our lives in any way. Therefore, why should we care?

But it's unlikely that such a being would be considered as god/good. I now think (hence my conversion) that the simpler version is better. There is no intelligible notion of god. Any intelligible notion would probably be rejected the the believers. Isn't that what the common view that god is ineffable is all about? "Incapable of being expressed; indescribable or unutterable."

The common view of God, or the common acceptance of any other godly proposition is fairly irrelevant here though. It's very handy that they ascribe a quality such as 'ineffable' to their [ahem] unlikely god. There is no reason that this should follow from a coherent, and logical proposition of god.
Why would you consider that an intelligible notion of god is beyond science/reason/imagination? Surely you are discounting the possibility of future discoveries (like the film 2010 by the Pantheist, Arthur C Clarke). Are you, as an Iggy, endowing any (as yet undescribed) god with ineffability?

I think I 'grocked' Apatheism better...

[Attila]

The common view of God, or the common acceptance of any other godly proposition is fairly irrelevant here though. It's very handy that they ascribe a quality such as 'ineffable' to their [ahem] unlikely god. There is no reason that this should follow from a coherent, and logical proposition of god.
Why would you consider that an intelligible notion of god is beyond science/reason/imagination? Surely you are discounting the possibility of future discoveries (like the film 2010 by the Pantheist, Arthur C Clarke). Are you, as an Iggy, endowing any (as yet undescribed) god with ineffability?

I think I 'grocked' Apatheism better...

Moi?!?! Little me? I'm not endowing anyone with anything. I don't think I invented the idea of god being ineffable. I do recall reading that somewhere. I likewise don't discount any discoveries and certainly not of the sort described in 2010. You give me faaaaaaaaaaaaaaar too much credit. I personally have no idea what god is or could possibly be. Concretely, I couldn't begin to tell you how to distinguish an advanced extra-planetary denizen from (a) god. I would be very curious and grateful to be so instructed. I keep asking this question and no one has answered it yet. Will you be the one? So to repeat your question and answer it directly: "Why would you consider that an intelligible notion of god is beyond science/reason/imagination?" Because no one has ever given one and AFAIK no research into the question is taking place nor likely to do so. As I indicated above, I don't have a problem with extra-terrestrials but what could conceivably convince us that they were gods and not mere mortals from another planet. You seem to have some ideas so please, give me a clue.  ???

[McQ]

Well, ummmm....congratulations, I suppose.

I'll just go and stand in the pathetic corner by myself. 

Yeah, I know the feeling. But you too can be saved. It's a minor jump from just not giving a shit to still not giving a shit and have a principled basis for not giving a shit. Think of it as being backed up by some hired muscle (Ayer, Drange, and company). You can still be you.  It absolutely painless.
Attila

I like that way of looking at it!