Confessions of an "ex-apathetist"

[Attila]

I live in Porto Alegre, but am originally from Brasilia.

Hi again silver,
Brasilia!!! I bet I was there before you.  I spent a couple of days there in 1965. I still remember the name of the hotel. "Hotel das Nações" I wonder if it still exists. In those days Brasilia was a massive construction site and all the civil servants flew back to Rio for the weekend.

Pardon my curiosity, but what did you teach?

No need for pardon, we're friends so ask whatever you like. 
I taught (retired now but still direct PhD theses from around the world) theoretical linguistics.

I moved around a lot growing up because of my father's job, and I miss all the novelty terribly and have grown bored of this place and people, (who really aren't all they say they are in other areas of Brazil ). I've been stuck in Porto Alegre for a few years now, and yearn for something else. 

Ah the Nordeste. I've never been there but always wished I had had the chance. It seems like very interesting place in general but I confess I don't know anything about Porto Alegre but my heart remains in Amazonas -- tenho saudade de chibé.
Ciao (Tchao?)
Attila 

[Too Few Lions]

There you go 10 posts! You are free to roam and not just sit on the border of the forum! And yes Perry does only have 2 r's. However his name is Parry!

It's a BBC TV series, here's a little sample http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V5hUACtoJI

The thing I like about him is that he gets 'stuck in', and does whatever the people he is visiting do such as work, socialising and rituals. He doesn't stand aside, watch and just comment. The telling part is often the tears of the locals when he leaves.

Bruce Parry's brilliant, one of the best things on TV in the past 10 years. He comes accross as being really interesting and open minded, and also a really nice guy too. I loved watching him take various mind altering plants and getting down with the shamen in various tribes. His show on the Arctic was excellent too, the Siberian summer solstice rituals and celebrations looked amazing.
I like his religious views too. He's described himself with,

'I'd pretty much known all along that Christianity wasn't for me. Ever since then, I've been on my own quest to find another truth. I can't read novels, but I do read books about cosmology, about astrophysics, about genetics. I'm interested in altered states of mind, and creation myths. It's all part of the same thing - I want to know why we think what we think. Now, I'd describe myself as pan-deist, reluctantly verging on atheist.'

[Too Few Lions]

If one is looking for a purpose in life I'd offer (a) have fun (b) gain knowledge (c) share.

Sounds pretty spot on to me, welcome to the forum Attila

[Attila]

...
In answer to your question, are you the only person that really doesn't care about the existence or none existence of God? The answer is no. You are not unique, there are others.

I know this to be true because on a football forum I use, on the off topic section there is quite often a religion debate, and one of the members on there will jump on any religion based thread - not to tell us that he is an atheist or a theist, or to discuss the points raised - but to tell us that he simply doesn't care. Every single time. So there you go. I find this odd and have challenged him, like I did you.

That certainly doesn't describe me so I don't that we (me and them) are starting from the same position. I participate in many forums, mostly technical,  and I have absolutely no desire to discuss such matters. I do believe that messages about the relevance of the existence of a deity are appropriate in an Atheist themed forum. If the general consensus is that my remarks are inappropriate here I'll happily withdraw. So far much of the response to my postings has been reasonably positive. 

See I don't care about Motorbikes, and because of this you'll never see me on a Motorbike forum. I don't care about Rugby, you'll never find me telling a Rugby forum that I don't care about Rugby. I don't care about Tapestry, so you will never find me on a Tapestry forum telling people that I don't want to discuss Tapestry.

I think that is an entirely reasonable position but I don't think that it is the case here. There are two reasons for this claim:
(1) On virtually every issue involving of religion in public life I will be indistinguishable from atheists. When speaking to theists they invariably group me with atheists.
(2) Whilst no one is has either motorbikes or ruby forced upon them (except me because my GF is partly Welsh and there's no living with her these days. ) every one of us is affected by the influence of the "faithful" in our lives and usually completely against our will. As I kid I was subjected to rather unpleasant experiences and my kids who had to go to a confessional school (RC in their case) likewise suffered abuse there. So issues about religion deeply affect each of us willy-nilly.
(3) I am very curious about why someone who does not accept any religious artefacts into their life would care about whether there is a god or not assuming the notion of "god" is at all meaningful. This forum gives me the opportunity to pose these questions and maybe learn something.

As for what you could call yourself, should you care enough to label it, I'd call you an apatheist. You are also an atheist if you care so little about god that you don't claim he is real.

The problem with apatheist is twofold: anything with a negative prefix a- (such as atheist) ought to have a counterpart without the a-. Is there are  patheist? I don't think so.  Secondly "apathetic"  sounds bad with or without the a- so I would tend to avoid it.

I'll end with a question: if you believe that there is no god, what is the definition of this god that you don't believe in?
Thanks again for the discussion. Most stimulating.
ciao,
Attila

[Attila]

If one is looking for a purpose in life I'd offer (a) have fun (b) gain knowledge (c) share.

Sounds pretty spot on to me, welcome to the forum Attila

Hi TFL,
Thanks for the kind words and the heads-up about Tribes. I will give it a try and report back and Parry sounds like fun.
Ciao,
Attila

[Too Few Lions]

No not really. Sounds like Pascal's bet which I always found bogus. Here's how it goes. I don't like Tony Blair. Ok, Tony Blair "does God". So if there's a Tony-Blair-type-God then I go to hell, right? But what's the alternative? Suck up to a Tony-Blair-type-God and have a miserable life where I hate my hypocritical self??  And how do I "win the bet"? Spend eternity (and that's a loooooong time) with Tony Blair?  Nope, I don't think so. The bet is a no-brainer. If hell doesn't have TB then that's better than one with a TB. In any event how could I like a god that wants to be worshipped. I wouldn't tolerate a friend like that let alone a diety.  Any other type god probably doesn't give any more of a toss about what I think than I do about him/her/it/them. So I  guess I feel totally safe and happy and I'm an old geezer, innt.

I've always thought the same thing, I really couldn't imagine anything worse than spending eternity with a bunch of devout Christians or Muslims. Never mind all that fire and torture baloney, that would be my idea of hell!

I've always thought Pascal wasn't very clever, because he didn't seem to realise that his wager only involved one god, the Christian one. If he'd been a little bit smarter he'd have realised that he's only backing one horse in a race of thousands. If any of the other gods are the real gods and not the Christian one, he's just as screwed as if he'd been an atheist. He probably should have embraced Hinduism, at least he'd have backed more than one theistic horse in the race!

I think you can be an atheist and an apathe(t)ist at the same time. I don't believe in any gods but I don't have a problem with the idea of gods per se. I dislike Christianity and Islam, but I quite like Zeus, Dionysos and Apollo, and am pretty apathetic towards a more abstract deist idea of god. I don't think any such god would give a toss if I believed in it or not, just like I don't give a toss if the ants in my garden believe in me.

[Attila]

I've always thought the same thing, I really couldn't imagine anything worse than spending eternity with a bunch of devout Christians or Muslims. Never mind all that fire and torture baloney, that would be my idea of hell!

I dislike Christianity and Islam

Naughty naughty TFL! What are you, antisemitic?!?! I wouldn't want to spend eternity with devout Jews either. And in all fairness I dislike Judaism just as much as Christianity and Islam!

but I quite like Zeus, Dionysos and Apollo, and am pretty apathetic towards a more abstract deist idea of god. I don't think any such god would give a toss if I believed in it or not, just like I don't give a toss if the ants in my garden believe in me.

As a kid, I was reading about Zeus and the other guys and girls. I got totally turned off them when I read the story about Prometheus and leaned what a complete bastard Zeus was. Getting your liver eaten day after day is not a barrel of laughs and remember, TFL, he was on our side, godammit! We gotta support our own, right! Also no Prometheus, no "C'mon baby light my fire"!
Ciao,
Attila

[Too Few Lions]

I've always thought the same thing, I really couldn't imagine anything worse than spending eternity with a bunch of devout Christians or Muslims. Never mind all that fire and torture baloney, that would be my idea of hell!

I dislike Christianity and Islam

Naughty naughty TFL! What are you, antisemitic?!?! I wouldn't want to spend eternity with devout Jews either. And in all fairness I dislike Judaism just as much as Christianity and Islam!

fair point, the god of the OT is a total wanker, and I wouldn't want to spend any time in the company of devout Jews, with their silly skull caps and hair tassles. But I guess I just have less of a problem with Jews because they don't have a long and bloody history of proselytising and forcibly converting non-believers or killing them. The attrocious actions of Israel against the Palestinians aside, the Jews generally just seem to happily keep to themselves in their deluded belief that they're the chosen people of Yahweh, and the rest of us don't really matter.

but I quite like Zeus, Dionysos and Apollo, and am pretty apathetic towards a more abstract deist idea of god. I don't think any such god would give a toss if I believed in it or not, just like I don't give a toss if the ants in my garden believe in me.

As a kid, I was reading about Zeus and the other guys and girls. I got totally turned off them when I read the story about Prometheus and leaned what a complete bastard Zeus was. Getting your liver eaten day after day is not a barrel of laughs and remember, TFL, he was on our side, godammit! We gotta support our own, right! Also no Prometheus, no "C'mon baby light my fire"!

Think I've always liked Zeus because he was such a naughty little slut! Fair point about Prometheus though, I've always liked him too. In some of the Greek accounts he was crucified by Zeus for being the saviour of humanity. sounds a bit familiar...

[xSilverPhinx]

I live in Porto Alegre, but am originally from Brasilia.

Hi again silver,
Brasilia!!! I bet I was there before you.   I spent a couple of days there in 1965. I still remember the name of the hotel. "Hotel das Nações" I wonder if it still exists. In those days Brasilia was a massive construction site and all the civil servants flew back to Rio for the weekend.

You were there when it was being built then, that's interesting

Hotel das Nações still exists, I know it hosts all sorts of international events. Way out of my financial league, however...

Ah the Nordeste. I've never been there but always wished I had had the chance. It seems like very interesting place in general but I confess I don't know anything about Porto Alegre but my heart remains in Amazonas -- tenho saudade de chibé.
Ciao (Tchao?)
Attila

Nordeste? Porto Alegre is in the southernmost state. The only place I've visited in the Nordeste is Rio Grande do Norte. Amazonas seems interesting, I love rainforests, but I don't think I could handle the weather very well.

Tchau

[Attila]

You were there when it was being built then, that's interesting

Hotel das Nações still exists, I know it hosts all sorts of international events. Way out of my financial league, however...

It's probably out of my league too now but then... it was quite affordable. I was travelling on a research fellowship so I didn't have a big budget.

Nordeste? Porto Alegre is in the southernmost state. The only place I've visited in the Nordeste is Rio Grande do Norte. Amazonas seems interesting, I love rainforests, but I don't think I could handle the weather very well.

Tchau

arrrghh. I am so stupid. Sorry about that.     
Tchau,
Attila

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Hi, Atilla, I beat you to the forum by only a couple of days. The people here are pretty nice, even though I'm a theist.  I like the "spirit" here, if you will pardon the expression.  How old are you, if you don't mind my asking? I'm 59, and have traveled a good bit myself, but I've never been an expatriate as you seem to be.  I look forward to reading what you have to say.

[Attila]

Hi, Atilla, I beat you to the forum by only a couple of days. The people here are pretty nice, even though I'm a theist.  I like the "spirit" here, if you will pardon the expression.  How old are you, if you don't mind my asking? I'm 59, and have traveled a good bit myself, but I've never been an expatriate as you seem to be.  I look forward to reading what you have to say.

Bondi (as we say around here) Bruce,
Yes, I completely agree about the vibes here. Quite fun.   I am 10 years your senior (born March 1942). I have never thought of myself as an expat since have absolutely no ties to my country of birth (not a matter of my choosing in any event) and the time I passed there is now only a vague an unpleasant memory. I do hold two passports but that was the most a could manage up to now. I'd have 100 if it were feasible. As for what I have to say, you've seen a sample in another thread and kindly responded. I've never really had much of a discussion with a theist before (they usually come knocking at my front door telling me that the have some good news...and then they don't  ) so I'm quite looking forward to it.
Ciao,
Attila

[xSilverPhinx]

arrrghh. I am so stupid. Sorry about that.     
Tchau,
Attila

Doesn't matter, just don't ever let the locals here ever catch you confusing them with the northeasterns. They...don't take too well to that sort of thing...

You're a linguist...do you know by any chance if there's any semblance of what could be called grammar to the babblings some call 'speaking in tongues'?

[Attila]

arrrghh. I am so stupid. Sorry about that.     
Tchau,
Attila

Doesn't matter, just don't ever let the locals here ever catch you confusing them with the northeasterns. They...don't take too well to that sort of thing...

You're a linguist...do you know by any chance if there's any semblance of what could be called grammar to the babblings some call 'speaking in tongues'?

When I was at the University of Toronto (1967-74) I had a colleague named William Samarin. I learned the technical term "glossolalia" for speaking in tongues. He even had tapes of people doing it. You can doubtless find numerous account of it by googling "glossolalia". My own opinion, fwiw, is that glossolalia certainly has patterns but nothing resembling in any way, shape or form, human language. I don't believe that recursion (a formal property common to all human languages) is present in glossolalia. If you want more detailed info let me know.
Tchau,
Attila

[Tank]

@ Attila

At 69 I think you are currently our most experienced active member. We do get the occasional teenager join up as well so we have a good age spread.