Greetings from a newbie

[Tank]

Dennis and I know each other from the Sam Harris forum and Project Reason (also Sam Harris).  I posted there for about 4 1/2 years, but it got a little dysfunctional (as much my fault as that of others), so I decided to move on.  I like the civil tone here.  Hope I don't disrupt it.

I was set up as an admin there a long time ago but didn't participate as I didn't like the forum format or the 'feel' of the place. I spent more time at RDF before that imploded. You'll find this place different from other atheist forums in that theists don't get refered to as 'chew toys' etc as I have seen on other forums.

[Good and Godless]

I liked your intro.  You have had an interesting life.

I'm just curious about something.  What brings a theist to join an atheist forum?  I guess I'm asking what you get out of it.  Do you ever find your faith is tested?  In your opinion, what is the most convincing argument for atheism?

I hope you don't think I'm picking on you.  I'm just genuinely curious.  I find myself sometimes pausing on some of the Christian public access channels on the television.  I think I've figured out my own reasons for doing that, and I'm just wondering what your reasons are.

Anyway, from one newbie to another...I look forward to future discussions.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Interesting life, why did you travel so much?

For part of that time, I was doing some missionary work with an American organization, mainly working with kids coming off drugs.  For part of it, I was just being a gypsy and seeing the world.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

I'm just curious about something.  What brings a theist to join an atheist forum?  I guess I'm asking what you get out of it.  Do you ever find your faith is tested?  In your opinion, what is the most convincing argument for atheism?

I actually find conversations with atheists more interesting that those with Christians, most of whom talk in dogma-speak. Furthermore, it's more challenging to have discussions with those who have a different world view.  My faith is tested every day, in the crucible of life.  The most convincing argument for atheism is probably the lack of empirical evidence for the existence of God, and the inability of a Christian to prove the resurrection or miracles of Jesus experimentally.  My faith is based primarily on my personal experience of what I interpret to be the presence of God, and secondarily on my historical analysis of some First Century Christian texts.  My subjective experience cannot be repeated by someone else, so that has little persuasive power when shared.  But it's convincing to me.   

[Too Few Lions]

My faith is based primarily on my personal experience of what I interpret to be the presence of God, and secondarily on my historical analysis of some First Century Christian texts.  

what texts are they? given that the earliest known fragments of the New Testament date to the second century, and a lot of the earliest known versions of NT texts date to the late second or even third centuries.  It may be a bit pedantic, but I think you should just say the New Testament rather than 'first century Christian texts'. Until someone finds NT or any other Christian texts dated to the first century, I don't think we can be 100% sure quite what Christian texts existed in that century, and what they information they contained about Jesus and his teachings.

oh, I almost forgot, welcome to the forum. It's always good to have some theists aboard to lock horns and have a friendly debate with. I'm very envious of all that travelling you've done!

[Ecurb Noselrub]

My faith is based primarily on my personal experience of what I interpret to be the presence of God, and secondarily on my historical analysis of some First Century Christian texts.  

what texts are they? given that the earliest known fragments of the New Testament date to the second century, and a lot of the earliest known versions of NT texts date to the late second or even third centuries.  It may be a bit pedantic, but I think you should just say the New Testament rather than 'first century Christian texts'. Until someone finds NT or any other Christian texts dated to the first century, I don't think we can be 100% sure quite what Christian texts existed in that century, and what they information they contained about Jesus and his teachings.

I am referring to some of the authentic epistles of Paul.  While the earliest manuscripts that we have date from the second century, multiple manuscripts from all over the Mediterranean world attest to the content of the autographs (originals), and produce a high level of confidence among scholars that we know what Paul wrote. If you read the eclectic Greek text in the Nestle-Aland/United Bible Societies (3rd Ed.) Greek New Testament, there is a scholarly analysis of all the textual variants.  The text that results is accepted, for the most part, even by agnostic scholars such as Bart Ehrman.  We can't be 100% sure of the original content, but we can't be 100% sure of many things in science, either.  In analyzing ancient documents, we are aiming for a high degree of confidence, and we have that in the seven authentic epistles of Paul.

I also disagree that I should refer to these documents as "the New Testament."  I'm only talking about some of the authentic epistles of Paul, not the entire collection of texts now commonly referred to as the "New Testament."  When Paul wrote, there was no "New Testament", and his writings were not part of the "New Testament" until it was created almost three centuries later.  When he wrote, his letters were not even part of "The Bible." So I just refer to them as early Christians texts.   

[Whitney]

Welcome to HAF.  I'm also in Texas...I don't know if it's just because Texas is a big but we seem to get a lot of Texans on the forum (or perhaps I just notice it more since I live here).

[Tank]

Welcome to HAF.  I'm also in Texas...I don't know if it's just because Texas is a big but we seem to get a lot of Texans on the forum (or perhaps I just notice it more since I live here).

It's odd but there are lots of Texans here and as the Internet has no borders that is peculiar.

[Too Few Lions]

I am referring to some of the authentic epistles of Paul.  While the earliest manuscripts that we have date from the second century, multiple manuscripts from all over the Mediterranean world attest to the content of the autographs (originals), and produce a high level of confidence among scholars that we know what Paul wrote. If you read the eclectic Greek text in the Nestle-Aland/United Bible Societies (3rd Ed.) Greek New Testament, there is a scholarly analysis of all the textual variants.  The text that results is accepted, for the most part, even by agnostic scholars such as Bart Ehrman.  We can't be 100% sure of the original content, but we can't be 100% sure of many things in science, either.  In analyzing ancient documents, we are aiming for a high degree of confidence, and we have that in the seven authentic epistles of Paul.

I also disagree that I should refer to these documents as "the New Testament."  I'm only talking about some of the authentic epistles of Paul, not the entire collection of texts now commonly referred to as the "New Testament."  When Paul wrote, there was no "New Testament", and his writings were not part of the "New Testament" until it was created almost three centuries later.  When he wrote, his letters were not even part of "The Bible." So I just refer to them as early Christians texts.   

Fair enough, I was just wondering what those texts were. Maybe you could have just said the epistles of Paul and I'd have known what you were talking about.
Personally I'm not 100% convinced about the early dating of a lot of NT texts, the reasons given for the dating have never seemed all that watertight to me, more an assumption that the writings must be that early because they claim to be. I've also always found it odd that all the earliest Christian texts are in Greek, it's made me rather sceptical of the idea of an original Jerusalem Church and origin of Christianity in Palestine with Aramaic speaking Jews.
I find Paul a bit of an interesting but shadowy character. I don't believe the account of his life and travels in Acts is remotely historical, but the letters attributed to him are central to Christianity, and he represents more what I suspect the original Christians were, Hellenised Jews.

[Crow]

My subjective experience cannot be repeated by someone else, so that has little persuasive power when shared.  But it's convincing to me.   

Nice, seem like you will create some interesting reads. This sentence is a refreshing change from the other theists that tend to frequent the site. Welcome.

I always find it curious how people align to a particular religion, was your 'subjective experience' what lead you to Christianity or was it something that helped affirm a belief that you already held? If it wasn't a belief that you already held why did your experience lead you down the road to Christianity?

[Ecurb Noselrub]

I always find it curious how people align to a particular religion, was your 'subjective experience' what lead you to Christianity or was it something that helped affirm a belief that you already held? If it wasn't a belief that you already held why did your experience lead you down the road to Christianity?

Well, I was raised in a Christian home (not rabidly so, however), so I always had that influence.  I can't discount the possibility that this background colored my subjective experience.  But the first one was intensely ecstatic, and at the time I had no doubt that I was in the presence of Jesus. After the fact, I've questioned it many times, but other similar (but less intense) experiences have buttressed my original impression, so I remain Christian.  I can say that those experiences are the main reason I am a believer today.  If all I had was my family history, and Christian dogma and tradition, I don't know that I would have remained in the faith.  It was the personal experiences that sealed the deal, so to speak.

[DeterminedJuliet]

I just realized that I've been debating with you in other threads without properly saying hello. How rude!

Hello!

[Cforcerunner]

Hello - I'm Ecurb Noselrub from Texas, the land of perpetual wildfires.  The wildfires started last fall, about the time we elected Rick Perry as governor for the 1,000th time. This proves the existence of God - he is punishing us for electing this man.

I am a Christian, a lawyer, and a minister at a small church. Most of the atheists I've met on various atheist sites seem to be decent people, and I have no problem with them.  I won't be posting much, and won't be preaching at all. But if I have something relevant to say about a topic, I'll chime in. Cheers.

I'm a Christian as well

Hi Ecurb and Dennis

Welcome to HAF. It is my experience that one derives benefit from a forum in proportion to the effort one puts into it 

Regards
Chris

My name is Chris as well 

[Ecurb Noselrub]

I just realized that I've been debating with you in other threads without properly saying hello. How rude!

Hello!

Hello.  Pleased to make your acquaintance!

[Ecurb Noselrub]

I'm a Christian as well

Hi Chris. Nice to meet you.