My view of Physics and God

[SuperiorEd]

I don't follow your proof....could you explain what logical steps you took to know that reality is an illusion (and if you didn't mean illusion then could you re-explain what you think the universe is?)?  If you could list your steps philosophically as premise proof etc that would help us all get where you are coming from.

Read genesis 1:27 and John 1:1.  LOGOS is Word in John 1:1.  I study physics as a passion.  I study the Bible for references to physics.  There are plenty.  When Jesus said that the veil had been torn to the temple enterance of the Holy area, I realized what this was saying.  The veil is the block over our consciousness so we do not see God as fact.  We need to experience Him by faith.  When the Bible speaks of the temple, it references the body and mind of man. 

Ephesians 2:21
In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.

The veil was torn on our consciousness so that we see.  The industrial revolution and the tech revolution followed.  Today, as I said earlier, is the only day in history that we have an idea of how to conceive a created image from information management.  We are beginning to see.

[DeterminedJuliet]

That's quite the intense "hello"

[fester30]

Theists want evidence for why a god doesn't exist.  However, their proof that a god does exist most often involves metaphysics, philosophy, and the Bible, none of which are evidence. 

Is it a metaphysical, philosophical, or Biblical proof you are seeking from us as well?  Since you like a game with limits, how about, in 1 post or less, you submit something of actual, physical proof for the existence of a deity.  The Bible is not evidence, in this case, otherwise we'd have to consider the possibility that Hogwarts is a real place.

[DeterminedJuliet]

I think you have a very interesting explanation for the definition of God, but I still don't see how you end up with the Judeo-Christian God based on what you've said. Why not "ultimate reality" or something of that nature? I don't see the connect between what you've described and why we should feel that the Bible is the key to relating to this "infinity at rest". Why is Christianity is the only "true" expression of the reality you've described?

[fester30]

I don't follow your proof....could you explain what logical steps you took to know that reality is an illusion (and if you didn't mean illusion then could you re-explain what you think the universe is?)?  If you could list your steps philosophically as premise proof etc that would help us all get where you are coming from.

Read genesis 1:27 and John 1:1.  LOGOS is Word in John 1:1.  I study physics as a passion.  I study the Bible for references to physics.  There are plenty.  When Jesus said that the veil had been torn to the temple enterance of the Holy area, I realized what this was saying.  The veil is the block over our consciousness so we do not see God as fact.  We need to experience Him by faith.  When the Bible speaks of the temple, it references the body and mind of man. 

Ephesians 2:21
In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.

The veil was torn on our consciousness so that we see.  The industrial revolution and the tech revolution followed.  Today, as I said earlier, is the only day in history that we have an idea of how to conceive a created image from information management.  We are beginning to see.

Then again there are preachers who will tell you that the veil tearing was the end of the Abrahamic Covenant and the beginning of the new covenant in Christ.

So by the veil tearing are you saying that now, without the "block" there, we should be seeing god as fact instead of relying on faith?  I'm a bit confused there.  I'm also confused how that has anything to do with the study of physics.

Also, when theists quote religious scripture to an atheist, I don't think they realize that it doesn't have quite the clout they expect it to.  To me, the Bible was written by humans, not inspired by any deity, therefore it has no spiritual hold over me.  I don't trust it any more than I trust the Count of Monte Cristo as being factual.

It's of no matter, however.  Your god is a jerk for allowing people to be born in places where they cannot hear the word of Jesus, and then proceed to condemn them to hell for not accepting him as their savior.  If he did exist, I think I'd choose hell over your god on principle alone.

As for beginning to see... we are beginning to see gods less and less in our world as we explain more aspects of nature that used to be attributed to deities.  The population of non-believers in the world is increasing.  If we were beginning to see, as you put it, I would think that would go in the other direction.

[The Magic Pudding]

"Re: Can you make an atheist out of me before I reach 10 posts"?

Lets say there have been 10,000 gods proposed, you seem to believe in one or oneish.

Divide 1 by 10,000 do some wibbling and wobbling and I conclude you are 99.99% atheist

Oh damn I was too slow, you're on 21 posts already, no cookie from Satan for me today.

[SuperiorEd]

I think you have a very interesting explanation for the definition of God, but I still don't see how you end up with the Judeo-Christian God based on what you've said. Why not "ultimate reality" or something of that nature? I don't see the connect between what you've described and why we should feel that the Bible is the key to relating to this "infinity at rest". Why is Christianity is the only "true" expression of the reality you've described?

I tell you how I can arrive at this.  The fingerprint of nature is found in only one religious text.  Read the OP again and see where that finger print is.  Genesis and John 1.  God and Jesus.  Son and Father.  Light and Wave.  Energy and Word.  Any way you look at it, the Bible is just astounding as to its accuracy on a host of subjects.  Physics is the most exciting.

Consider what I said about Paul Dirac's relativistic quantum mechanical wave equation.

"...our universe is parallel to another universe in opposite.  Our matter is anti-matter to this mirrored universe.  The event horizon between these two universes represents the projection point of both.  The BBC did a thought-provoking documentary on this subject."

Now read this:

Hebrews 11

3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

Quantum weirdness is not visible. 

1 Colossians 1:
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

How can it get clearer from the context presented?  The key is all you need to understand.  When the Bible says that Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable, it states that a man that says that consciousness does not pre-exist matter is dead in unbelief.  But why?  Pride.  Genesis 3 states that man reached for knowledge apart form God.  God desired to teach the education.  The result is walking alone.  The education is full of toil as stated in Genesis 3.

"Cursed is the ground because of you;
   through painful toil you will eat food from it
   all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
   and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
   you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
   since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
   and to dust you will return."

So, you can see more of my process.  We toil when we do not walk in the garden (earth) with God. 

Consider this verse.  According to the Bible, Heaven contains many dwelling places made specifically for us.  God prepares a new heavens and a new earth for us.  Could the parallel universe of Dirac's equation suggest that Heaven is a twin to our own reality?

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

2 Peter 3:12  as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.

As I consider Dirac's equation, it is interesting to ponder the significance of matter and anti-matter.  The verses above seem to suggest a connection.  It is also interesting to consider the fact that we must be more than flesh and blood to survive in Heaven.  God says in the Bible that we cannot look upon Him without being consumed. 

Where is this place?  Parallel universe theory and the many world's theory holds the answer, or a clue to the answer.  Theory is not a good way to describe God.  Some say that God is not a good way to describe God.  I say that God is science. 

1 Corinthians 15: 
50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Where is the kingdom of God we inherit?  Look up.  We cannot go there without taking some of earth with us.  The universe is too big to describe.  We inherit this:

Deuteronomy 4

19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.

We are appointed to a new home.  But why?  Our Exodus from Egypt.  Egypt is the earth. 

20 But as for you, the LORD took you and brought you out of the iron-smelting furnace, out of Egypt, to be the people of his inheritance, as you now are.

Go back to the image idea and creation as the image of God and the image we are in.  Read the verse that precedes the last two.

15 You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, 18 or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below.

God refuses to be seen as an image.  He is not.  We are. 

There you have it.  More to my process in reply to your request.

[SuperiorEd]

Deleted as a duplicate.

[DeterminedJuliet]

The thing is, I don't worship physics. My very happiness and mental well-being isn't founded on the fact that I believe our current understanding of physics to be infallible. I don't. There was a thread here just the other day about how it may be possible that one of Einsteins theories may be proven false; there may be particles that can travel faster than light which, until now, has seemed to be impossible.

And, with this very large potential paradigm shift, did we all panic? Did we all lose our heads because our precious "physics" might be wrong? No. We all thought it was interesting and discussed it a bit and then went along our day.

We were able do that because our lack of belief gives us the flexibility to see reason and admit that we don't know all of the answers. And when we do get an answer wrong, what's the punishment? Nothing, there is no punishment.

So, the parallels that you drew between the bible and physics are interesting (though I'd argue tenuous, at best), but don't see why I should find it convincing. I don't worship physics, so why should I worship something that has "connections" to physics? 

Other than that, I think it's quite arrogant to say that the "fingerprint of nature" is only in one religious text. Have you read every religious text?

[SuperiorEd]

I don't follow your proof....could you explain what logical steps you took to know that reality is an illusion (and if you didn't mean illusion then could you re-explain what you think the universe is?)?  If you could list your steps philosophically as premise proof etc that would help us all get where you are coming from.

Then again there are preachers who will tell you that the veil tearing was the end of the Abrahamic Covenant and the beginning of the new covenant in Christ.

So by the veil tearing are you saying that now, without the "block" there, we should be seeing god as fact instead of relying on faith?  I'm a bit confused there.  I'm also confused how that has anything to do with the study of physics.

Also, when theists quote religious scripture to an atheist, I don't think they realize that it doesn't have quite the clout they expect it to.  To me, the Bible was written by humans, not inspired by any deity, therefore it has no spiritual hold over me.  I don't trust it any more than I trust the Count of Monte Cristo as being factual.

It's of no matter, however.  Your god is a jerk for allowing people to be born in places where they cannot hear the word of Jesus, and then proceed to condemn them to hell for not accepting him as their savior.  If he did exist, I think I'd choose hell over your god on principle alone.

As for beginning to see... we are beginning to see gods less and less in our world as we explain more aspects of nature that used to be attributed to deities.  The population of non-believers in the world is increasing.  If we were beginning to see, as you put it, I would think that would go in the other direction.

Is there a reason that the meaning needs to be a paradox form a revelation of knowledge?  I think the Genesis 3 account is all about the fruit of knowledge.  The meaning is both as far as I can see.

The Bible is written by humans.  Yes.  It is a mirror of God and man.  We are also mirrors.  What does a mirror see when it looks?  What it reflects.  What does a man see when he looks at the Bible?  The same.  Again, we are the image of God.  Where do I find the parallel in the Bible to this context you and I discuss.  So far in this reply, I have talked about education and a mirror.

1 Corinthians 13

11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Is God a jerk?  Consider this.  Jesus said in John 3, "you must be born again."  It is not an option.  You will be born again.  This is the process.  He states in John 3 that we have two births.  We are born into the water (baptism into the material world).  Or, we can be born into the spirit.  How is this possible?  When we see nature, we see the sun and moon come together to create life on earth.  We also see sperm and egg come together when a man and woman fall in love.  Again, new life.  Is this where union ends.  No.  The earth is yet another womb and our bodies are the next placenta.  Crude but true.  We fall in love with God and gain union with the spirit within.  Your soul is only one aspect of you.  The spirit (Consciousness) is the other.  Satan is the animal nature to be defeated.  Again, symbolism.  

Why doesn't God just come out and say it and save the suffering?  Suffering is the point.  We suffer to earn.  Suffering either has us or others as a cause, or we choose to suffer work for reward.  Either way, we must suffer to learn.

Confucius says, "I hear and I forget.  I see and I learn.  I do and I understand."

You must be born again.  It is the process.  

[SuperiorEd]

Other than that, I think it's quite arrogant to say that the "fingerprint of nature" is only in one religious text. Have you read every religious text?

Yes.  Buddha is very close.

Dhammapada Choices:

We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our
thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
Speak or act with an impure mind
And trouble will follow you
As the wheel follows the ox that draws
the cart.
We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our
thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
Speak or act with a pure mind
And happiness will follow you
As your shadow, unshakable.
"Look how he abused me and hurt me,
How he threw me down and robbed
me."
Live with such thoughts and you live in
hate.
"Look how he abused me and hurt me,
How he threw me down and robbed
me."
Abandon such thoughts, and live in
love.
In this world
Hate never yet dispelled hate.
Only love dispels hate.
This is the law,
Ancient and inexhaustible.

[DeterminedJuliet]

O-kaayy?

Also, in regard to your response to Fester, quoting the bible will get you absolutely no-where unless you are able to convince us that it has validity. Your appeal to authority, in of itself, isn't going to work because we don't acknowledge the authority.

Saying "the Bible is a mirror" means nothing to us. I might as well worship my mirror because, heck, my mirror is REALLY a mirror!

[SuperiorEd]

The thing is, I don't worship physics. My very happiness and mental well-being isn't founded on the fact that I believe our current understanding of physics to be infallible. I don't. There was a thread here just the other day about how it may be possible that one of Einsteins theories may be proven false; there may be particles that can travel faster than light which, until now, has seemed to be impossible.

I am not trying to convince you.  Faith is not something a person finds.  Faith is something God works in us.  It is his burden.  Our burden is living life and finding God as he works.  My job here is to allow the flaming sword to do its work.  In Genesis, God protects the tree of life with the flaming sword of His consuming fire.  This works to cut away pride in the individual.  I am doing some alchemy here and trying to find answers to more.  Since I have taken this path, all roads lead back to the Bible.  No matter where I go or what I read, the Bible is steadfast as the source of all streams that flow from it.  

As I present my thoughts, I am hoping for something to reveal any pride that is left in me.  If there is a better answer, I am waiting patiently.  It is pretty hard to beat education from a bestowal of love.  

[xSilverPhinx]

Other than that, I think it's quite arrogant to say that the "fingerprint of nature" is only in one religious text. Have you read every religious text?

Yes.  Buddha is very close.

Dhammapada Choices:

We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our
thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
Speak or act with an impure mind
And trouble will follow you
As the wheel follows the ox that draws
the cart.
We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our
thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
Speak or act with a pure mind
And happiness will follow you
As your shadow, unshakable.
"Look how he abused me and hurt me,
How he threw me down and robbed
me."
Live with such thoughts and you live in
hate.
"Look how he abused me and hurt me,
How he threw me down and robbed
me."
Abandon such thoughts, and live in
love.
In this world
Hate never yet dispelled hate.
Only love dispels hate.
This is the law,
Ancient and inexhaustible.

Nice themes, makes for good memes and if pushed far enough, pop philosophy and psychology. Is that what religion is?

[xSilverPhinx]

I am not trying to convince you.  Faith is not something a person finds.  Faith is something God works in us.  It is his burden.  Our burden is living life and finding God as he works.  My job here is to allow the flaming sword to do its work.  In Genesis, God protects the tree of life with the flaming sword of His consuming fire.  This works to cut away pride in the individual.  I am doing some alchemy here and trying to find answers to more.  Since I have taken this path, all roads lead back to the Bible.  No matter where I go or what I read, the Bible is steadfast as the source of all streams that flow from it. 

You may have your emotional reasons for believing in a god, but that right there is the definition of confirmation bias...