Your kids in a godless world

[Xjeepguy]

How exactly does christianity benefit children? o_o

In my opinion, it doesn't. All the church did to me when I was young was to make me resent my parents for making me go every week.

[Sweetdeath]

I don't get it either, because all I get from christianity is ignorant and intolerance.  Making people have a black/white view of the world.

I would never want a child to be forced into a religious enviroment.

[Siz]

I have to imagine such a thing is incredibly complicated and at times difficult. On the one hand, you clearly respect your SO's beliefs because you're with him/her, but at the same time you have your own beliefs that are directly contradictory to his/hers and I'm sure you're compelled to help your children remain objective enough to make what we all agree is the healthier decision when they're ready.

One thing I think that would be helpful is, when they're old enough, getting them online and allowing them to experience the really cool way a lot of the internet has become a crucible for the truth, burning away fallacies and lies, leaving only the truth. I'm sure a lot of people on this forum were really helped by the no-bullshit kind of interactions on the internet, myself included. As time goes on, and my generation and younger generations that grew up with the internet become adults and take over society, religion will have a smaller and smaller place in our lives. I'm thankful for that.

That's true, but the internet is also a hothouse for religious (and Atheist) extremism.

[Siz]

How exactly does christianity benefit children? o_o

In the same way that The Tooth fairy does, or Father Christmas, or... Spiderman.

For all its pernicious nastiness, there are some excellent moral messages, particularly expounded by Jesus (and we have no reason to doubt his existence as a mortal human - just somewhat embiggened and misquoted). For his demeanour and love of people and peace and morality one must recognise his values.

And I know that sounds like religious apology, but many of the moral messages are sound.

So, I will let my children soak up the same good stories that I enjoyed as a child, knowing that with some objective guidance in the future they will be able to make their own sane judgements, about the mumbo-jumbo, just as I did.

While ideologically we'd all like to see religion become obsolete let's not stoop to the depths of trying to gag free speech. I'm going to take all that is valuable in religion and discard the rest. The fact is we have to exist alongside the religious majority.

[Sandra Craft]

And I know that sounds like religious apology, but many of the moral messages are sound.

It just takes a little work cherry-picking.  The fundamentalists foam at the mouth over that, but they do it too -- I sometimes think they do more cherry-picking any anyone.  And really, most things in life need to be cherry-picked because this is not a one-size-fits-all world.

[Sweetdeath]

Call me cynical, but religion doesn't instill morality.

Also, spiderman doesnt have a house of worship or preachers.  

[Asmodean]

Also, spiderman doesnt have a house of worship or preachers.  

Oh, I wouldn't be so sure... There are, after all, whackos out there who worship Darth Vader or Yoda or... Well something out of those movies.

[Siz]

Call me cynical, but religion doesn't instill morality.

I absolutely agree, 100%, without question.
But that's not to say that there aren't valid morals to be found in the bible or Jesus' teachings. I can cherry-pick them as well (or as badly) as any Christian.

[Asmodean]

I absolutely agree, 100%, without question.
But that's not to say that there aren't valid morals to be found in the bible or Jesus' teachings. I can cherry-pick them as well (or as badly) as any Christian.

Not worried about the potential backfire..?

I mean, if a kid knows that some value of his is derived from the bible and starts, at some point, cherry-picking at the rest... No knowing what may be found useful then.

[Siz]

I absolutely agree, 100%, without question.
But that's not to say that there aren't valid morals to be found in the bible or Jesus' teachings. I can cherry-pick them as well (or as badly) as any Christian.

Not worried about the potential backfire..?

I mean, if a kid knows that some value of his is derived from the bible and starts, at some point, cherry-picking at the rest... No knowing what may be found useful then.

Are you talking about them actually deciding to become a Christian? Well, they will always get a balanced view from home (me), and I know where I'd put my money when it comes to deciding who's telling fibs.

And anyway, I have no fear of them deciding to be religious. It's not my chosen path for them, but they are free to make their own choices - given all the FACTS. I will not dictate what they can and can't believe. That's entering the territory of the pious zealot and that is to be despised.

[Asmodean]

Are you talking about them actually deciding to become a Christian?

Not necessarilly, but the same book as says "Love thy neighbour" also says you are to murder his ass for being gay.

And anyway, I have no fear of them deciding to be religious. It's not my chosen path for them, but they are free to make their own choices - given all the FACTS. I will not dictate what they can and can't believe. That's entering the territory of the pious zealot and that is to be despised.

It's not about believing in fairy tales, but about situational adaptation of morals and values available as "true and pure" from the source that helped define the morals and values already held.

[Siz]

Are you talking about them actually deciding to become a Christian?

Not necessarilly, but the same book as says "Love thy neighbour" also says you are to murder his ass for being gay.

And anyway, I have no fear of them deciding to be religious. It's not my chosen path for them, but they are free to make their own choices - given all the FACTS. I will not dictate what they can and can't believe. That's entering the territory of the pious zealot and that is to be despised.

It's not about believing in fairy tales, but about situational adaptation of morals and values available as "true and pure" from the source that helped define the morals and values already held.

I'm confident enough in my own abilities as a parent not to worry about moral corruption. I consider morals as coming from within - it is a human condition. Any morals espoused as religious only tap-in to ones own inate moral code, unless the zealot in question is not sufficiently free-thinking to consider the truth of a 'learned' moral. I see no threat to my children from the religion to which I allow exposure. Zero exposure is not heathy as this leads to ignorance. We have to exist among the religious, so learning something of their world is useful as a lesson in social interaction.

[Too Few Lions]

I admire your tolerance Scissorlegs. Not that I intend to have any kids, but I couldn't christen or baptise my children if I did have any. Babies can't decide what god to believe in (if any), I'm still a little offended my parents christened me! I was asked to be godfather to my half-brother 15 odd years ago (my stepmum's an evangelical Catholic  ), and stupidly said yes. I then had to stand at the front of a church in front of everybody and had the priest utter all kinds of rubbish about bringing him up as a good Catholic and making sure he rejects 'Satan and all his minions' (I mean really in the 21st century!) I just stood there stony faced , blatantly refusing to say anything or repeat any of it, I don't think my stepmum was too pleased!

I think once you're christened some in the church consider you a Christian for life. I can remember having to go to hospital as a teenager and the nurse asking me my religion. I answered 'atheist' and she looked at me in a nonplused way and asked if I'd been christened. I answered 'yes' and she replied 'well then you're a Christian' and ticked that box. To be fair if that happened to me these days I'd report the nurse and try and get her disciplined.

I went to a relaxed C of E primary school too, but still remember plenty of RE lessons that were basically Bible lessons, and prayers, Bible readings and hymns every morning. It was definitely indoctrination.

I'm sure if you temper any such indoctrination they receive at school or church (eek!) with a healthy dose of scepticism your kids will turn out fine. It's pretty easy to counter any argument Christians can put forward to promote their religion / god. Even the positive morality of loving one's neighbour or turning the other cheek, you can just tell your kids that Plato taught the same thing 400 years earlier and Jesus just copied Plato.

How will you feel if they grow into fine upstanding young Christians? Personally I'd be gutted if it was my kids, despite the fact that I'd want them to make their own mind up and be happy. I'd also think how could they be so stupid, are they really mine?  And how will your partner feel if your children end up atheists or agnostics? Will she think you corrupted them away from the true path of their Lord and saviour. These things are often a bigger deal for believers than non-believers, after all it's your childrens' eternal souls that are at stake!

[Sweetdeath]

Pretty much what Mr. Lions said.  Instead of teaching them crap fairy tales from the nible, why don't you introduce them to real philosiphers that actually existed?

You can cherry pick the bible all you want, but 99.9% of it id still an intolerant, sexist, rascist book.    I liked Hitler's art, but that doesnt mean I take painting lessions from him.   Besides... Well, look at that, he still existed at least.

You might as well put on much emphasis on sirens and fire demons living in volcanoes. 


And I understand that zero exposure to religion CAN breed intolerance, but it still should all be viewed as false and myths.

[Siz]

You can cherry pick the bible all you want, but 99.9% of it id still an intolerant, sexist, rascist book.

99.9%... really?!

My god, I'm sounding like a religious nut here, but let's get Jesus into context:

Yes, Old testament is full of sadistic, overbearing bullshit.
Yes, Christians are zealous bullies
Yes Christianity, when forced down the throat is misguided, pernicious, mind control.

But I have to defend the concept of Jesus as a man - spectacularly similar in outlook to Gandhi who describes the hypocrissy of all religions. Peaceful, thoughtful, generous, kind. They were both good men. And I am happy for my children to learn about good men - from Jesus, through Darwin, Gandhi, Carl Sagan, to Dawkins. (and I repeat - we have no reason to think that Jesus was not a real mortal man, just like the Prohet Mohammed).

And to address Lions comments: Why should I care if my children were Christened? No skin off their noses - in fact a benefit if they choose to enter the church by choice. And why should I care if my wifes fellow parishioners consider my children Christian? Bite me! And, for the record, my wife is open-minded enough to let our children decide for themselves - and respect their decision, just as she does mine and I hers.

Honestly, you're all frothing at the mouth and sounding every bit like the closed minded Christians you detest. Raging-against-the-machine isn't going to kill it. Let's work on liberal fairness before trying to topple the regime.