News:

There is also the shroud of turin, which verifies Jesus in a new way than other evidences.

Main Menu

Why God? Derail about ignorance

Started by iSok, September 06, 2011, 08:33:04 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

xSilverPhinx

Um...bacteria evolving to eat nylon, which is not a substance found naturally. Examples of observed speciation. Our fused chromossome 2. etc. etc.

I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


iSok

To all the other's here.

Since Stevil was talking about proof of religion in the same way as science, I asked him about evolution.
As a theist, I believe evolution is a plausible and currently the best scientific theory for the total spectrum of life.

One of the arguments for evolution is that all species are linked, for example in bone structure or cell structure.
Even if you can't see the process happening live, the fossil record shows a slow change of appearance during millions of years.

I was hoping that Stevil would raise this as evidence, since the same counts for religion.
The great world transforming religions all have basically the same message and some of the details that are found
within their myth's are as clear as daylight and are put forward by nations that were separated by time and space.
This cannot be questioned and many scholars had and still have their own explanation for this phenomenon.
The theist of course says that God revaled this religions, the atheist says that it's the collective human psyche, the need for an answer.

Exactly the same counts for evolution, there are people that stricly reject it, because they don't find the fossil record
very convincing and all the other points that are made are also rejected in some way.

It takes a lot of reading on theology of different religions, that it's not mumbo jumbo that is presented by fallible human beings.
But it is an infallible system that is introduced by different religions, point is whether you are going to believe it or not.

To further answer the question 'Why God?'.

As a believer, I don't know the perfect answer to the question; 'Why do I exist?'.
But I do know what to do in this life, that task fulfills the essence of every human being whatever you believe or wherever you're from; to reach the highest
station of happiness and for every believer that goal can be reached, by growing towards God. It's not like throwing your life away as many people think.
One of the reason why alcohol, premarital sex and so on are forbidden by the Sharia because they are obstacles in the way to true happiness.

Stevil, earlier mentioned that there's no learning process in this life, he's clearly mistaken.
We're blinded by our way of life, especially in the West that we've never looked back or asked ourselves; what type of people were
our ancestors?
I've met a very pious sufi saint in Afghanistan, one of my personal experiences.
He didn't talk much and he wasn't the typical radical idiot that you'll see running around with an Ak-47 shooting infidels.  
The sheer presence of this man was just overwhelming, he was rather extremely calm and had a presence of other
worldliness, probably the most majestic human being I've ever seen or ever will see.
Clearly this man had something with him that you cannot learn in books.

At the end of the day it's all about what you choose to believe.
Qur'an [49:13] - "O Mankind, We created you all from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another. Verily the noblest of you in the sight of God is the most God-fearing of you. Surely God is All-Knowing, All-Aware."

Stevil

Quote from: iSok on September 07, 2011, 08:03:55 PM
Stevil, earlier mentioned that there's no learning process in this life, he's clearly mistaken.
I meant, for an all knowing god, it knows everything, everything that has happened and everything that will happen.
How can it learn if it knows everything already?
For this god there seems (to me) to be no use , point or purpose for creation. It just doesn't make logical sense why a perfect all knowing god would create existence.

iSok

Quote from: Stevil on September 07, 2011, 08:14:21 PM
Quote from: iSok on September 07, 2011, 08:03:55 PM
Stevil, earlier mentioned that there's no learning process in this life, he's clearly mistaken.
I meant, for an all knowing god, it knows everything, everything that has happened and everything that will happen.
How can it learn if it knows everything already?
For this god there seems (to me) to be no use , point or purpose for creation. It just doesn't make logical sense why a perfect all knowing god would create existence.

I don't know why God created life, other than being God.
God doesn't learn, we learn and we grow.

Predestination and freewill are two issues that are debated a lot within the Muslim community.
Some give a simple answer by saying that God is beyond time and space and we are bounded by time and space, God
already knows what our end station is, for which we are fully responsible. Other's give a complicated answer supported by scripture.

Qur'an [49:13] - "O Mankind, We created you all from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another. Verily the noblest of you in the sight of God is the most God-fearing of you. Surely God is All-Knowing, All-Aware."

Sweetdeath


Quote from: iSok on September 07, 2011, 08:34:09 PM
Quote from: Stevil on September 07, 2011, 08:14:21 PM
Quote from: iSok on September 07, 2011, 08:03:55 PM
Stevil, earlier mentioned that there's no learning process in this life, he's clearly mistaken.
I meant, for an all knowing god, it knows everything, everything that has happened and everything that will happen.
How can it learn if it knows everything already?
For this god there seems (to me) to be no use , point or purpose for creation. It just doesn't make logical sense why a perfect all knowing god would create existence.

I don't know why God created life, other than being God.
God doesn't learn, we learn and we grow.

Predestination and freewill are two issues that are debated a lot within the Muslim community.
Some give a simple answer by saying that God is beyond time and space and we are bounded by time and space, God
already knows what our end station is, for which we are fully responsible. Other's give a complicated answer supported by scripture.



God is just god and he/she doesn't learn or grow?

That is seriously your arguement?
And you really think prematrial sex has anything to do with acheiving happiness in life?


Btw: pudding, fascinating article on the evolution of the peppered moths. <3
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

Davin

Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 07, 2011, 10:41:16 PMAnd you really think prematrial sex has anything to do with acheiving happiness in life?
I do!
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Sweetdeath

Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

Xjeepguy

If I were re-born 1000 times, it would be as an atheist 1000 times. -Heisenberg

Davin

Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 07, 2011, 10:55:26 PM
Quote from: Davin on September 07, 2011, 10:47:39 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 07, 2011, 10:41:16 PMAnd you really think prematrial sex has anything to do with acheiving happiness in life?
I do!
Really?  :(
If it makes one happy, then how could it not have something to do with happiness in life? I think there is a bit of stigma around sex in general, let alone sex before marriage. I think holding off for marriage simply to hold off for marriage is not good, but I don't advocate that one should do anything that moves. Simply remove both the idea that one should have a lot of sex with a lot of people along with the idea that one should wait until they're married before they have sex (let alone that same sex marriage is not yet legally recognized in many places still which prevents a lot of people from having marital sex).

So I do think that premarital sex can help two people come closer and be happier together, but like everything else, it depends on circumstances. Even though I was being a bit silly in my last post.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Sweetdeath

@Davin : oh ok!

I had sex with my gf, but I also believe in having serious, and comitted relationships.  Our three year anniversary is coming up.this winter, and I could not be happier.  I've been in love with her even before we started dating.  She wants to get married, and that is ok with me :D

But seriously though, sex is part of any serious relationship.   I love the connection I feel to another human being through intamacy.
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

Stevil

I actually think that I will be encouraging my daughters to have sex before they get married. I don't want them to marry someone just so that they get to have sex.
If you get the sexual stuff out of the way then you can move on to the more meaningfull stuff.

Tank

Quote from: Stevil on September 08, 2011, 10:38:31 AM
I actually think that I will be encouraging my daughters to have sex before they get married. I don't want them to marry someone just so that they get to have sex.
If you get the sexual stuff out of the way then you can move on to the more meaningfull stuff.
I didn't encourage or discourage my kids (2 girls, 1 boy) from having sex once they were old enough. But we did make sure that they appretiated the emotional and physical ramifications of what they got up to. Once they were 16 they could shut the door to their rooms and we knocked before we went in. They last thing I wanted was my kids doing stuff in an unsafe environment where if they said stop there was no where to go and get help.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Too Few Lions

Quote from: iSok on September 07, 2011, 08:03:55 PM
The great world transforming religions all have basically the same message and some of the details that are found within their myth's are as clear as daylight and are put forward by nations that were separated by time and space.
This cannot be questioned and many scholars had and still have their own explanation for this phenomenon.The theist of course says that God revaled this religions, the atheist says that it's the collective human psyche, the need for an answer.
Exactly the same counts for evolution, there are people that stricly reject it, because they don't find the fossil record very convincing and all the other points that are made are also rejected in some way.

ISok I think you're talking rubbish, not for the first time. Different religions have taught many different things. This atheist has read many religious texts and doesn't see the same message being taught by all religions and 'a collective human psyche' at play behind it all. Religions have taught vastly different things and had vastly different conceptions of gods, goddesses, the universe and man's place in it.
Evolution is a theory based on scientifically looking at the evidence in the natural world around us, your view on religion and a shared 'quest for god' is an unscientific attempt to shoehorn all religions together based on your own personal beliefs, which I suspect are based on Sufi texts you have read, which in turn are based on Greek and Hindu philosophy. To say that 'religions all have basically the same message' and 'this cannot be questioned' is utter bullcrap! That's a personal assumption and not a scientific fact, and in my personal view it actually flies in the face of all the evidence.


Tank

Quote from: iSok on September 07, 2011, 08:03:55 PM
To all the other's here.

Since Stevil was talking about proof of religion in the same way as science, I asked him about evolution.
As a theist, I believe evolution is a plausible and currently the best scientific theory for the total spectrum of life.

One of the arguments for evolution is that all species are linked, for example in bone structure or cell structure.
Even if you can't see the process happening live, the fossil record shows a slow change of appearance during millions of years.

I was hoping that Stevil would raise this as evidence, since the same counts for religion.
The great world transforming religions all have basically the same message and some of the details that are found
within their myth's are as clear as daylight and are put forward by nations that were separated by time and space.
This cannot be questioned and many scholars had and still have their own explanation for this phenomenon.
The theist of course says that God revaled this religions, the atheist says that it's the collective human psyche, the need for an answer.

Exactly the same counts for evolution, there are people that stricly reject it, because they don't find the fossil record
very convincing and all the other points that are made are also rejected in some way.

It takes a lot of reading on theology of different religions, that it's not mumbo jumbo that is presented by fallible human beings.
But it is an infallible system that is introduced by different religions, point is whether you are going to believe it or not.

To further answer the question 'Why God?'.

As a believer, I don't know the perfect answer to the question; 'Why do I exist?'.
But I do know what to do in this life, that task fulfills the essence of every human being whatever you believe or wherever you're from; to reach the highest
station of happiness and for every believer that goal can be reached, by growing towards God. It's not like throwing your life away as many people think.
One of the reason why alcohol, premarital sex and so on are forbidden by the Sharia because they are obstacles in the way to true happiness.

Stevil, earlier mentioned that there's no learning process in this life, he's clearly mistaken.
We're blinded by our way of life, especially in the West that we've never looked back or asked ourselves; what type of people were
our ancestors?
I've met a very pious sufi saint in Afghanistan, one of my personal experiences.
He didn't talk much and he wasn't the typical radical idiot that you'll see running around with an Ak-47 shooting infidels.  
The sheer presence of this man was just overwhelming, he was rather extremely calm and had a presence of other
worldliness, probably the most majestic human being I've ever seen or ever will see.
Clearly this man had something with him that you cannot learn in books.

At the end of the day it's all about what you choose to believe.
When Darwin wrote Origin of Species he didn't use the fossil record because he realised that while indicative of evolution at the time it was too full of significant gaps to use. It would be too easy a target for morons to exploit. Since 1859 many of the gaps have been filled in and just as importantly no fossil has ever been found that would contradict the Theory of Evolution. We now have a growing body of data associated with genetics of many different species and I read an estimate that by 2020 it will cost just $1,000 to sequence a genome. This genetic data has for the most part confirmed the cladistic based specification of species, and where there was a difference the cladistic model was modified.

The Theory of Evolution was never based on the fossil record.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Ihateyoumike

Quote from: Stevil on September 08, 2011, 10:38:31 AM
I actually think that I will be encouraging my daughters to have sex before they get married. I don't want them to marry someone just so that they get to have sex.
If you get the sexual stuff out of the way then you can move on to the more meaningfull stuff.

I'm here for ya if they need any help with that.







(needing the duck-behind-computer smiley right about now)
Prayers that need no answer now, cause I'm tired of who I am
You were my greatest mistake, I fell in love with your sin
Your littlest sin.