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Why God?

Started by Tank, September 04, 2011, 10:37:08 AM

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The Magic Pudding

Quote from: Stevil on September 11, 2011, 02:49:33 AM
(BTW) Movement is a relative concept as we don't know how to work out what an absolute stationary point is.

There it is an official stationary point, it's a 1987 Woolloomooloo post office queue.
The queue was moved to a BIPM vault in 1992, none of those in the queue seemed to notice.

Too Few Lions

Quote from: Stevil on September 11, 2011, 02:49:33 AM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on September 09, 2011, 11:41:10 AM
for something to be put in motion and regulated motion at that, people thought there must have been a prime mover.
But of course we now know that if there are two system's in space consisting of mass then they attract each other and will eventually move towards each other, unless of course there is a greater force keeping them apart.

(BTW) Movement is a relative concept as we don't know how to work out what an absolute stationary point is.
true, but in the ancient model of the universe there were two stationary points. Firstly the Earth which was believed to be set fast and unmovable, and secondly the pole star / celestial pole, which appears to be steadfast in the heavens and which all the other stars revolve around.

Tank

If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

not your typical...

Quote from: Stevil on September 05, 2011, 08:45:02 AM
To answer "Why God?", you need to ask "Why Me?"

It's a very simple intuitive philosophical question, exploding into a plethora of complicated, intricate and textured puzzles.
Who am I?
How come I am me and not someone else?
Have I always been?
Where will I go when my body fails?
Why am I in this body, in this time and place?
Where did I come from? Yeah, I know, Dad's jizz, Mum's egg in the oven. But I am more that just flesh and bone. I am master of this body I possess. With it's limits and flaws, I am not that mirrored reflection, I am much more.
Don't judge me on how I look, how dare you, this vessel is pure chance. It's what is on the inside that is my pride and joy, I've crafted and shaped myself, I've removed my constraints, I've expanded my horizons, expectations and imagination. I can control who I am, just not so much on what I look like.

But I am special, I am not someone else, I am me. I have consciousness and intelligence, creativity and personality. I am certainly no stupid animal. There is no-one quite like me, never has been, never will be again. I am special, I am unique.

But what chance was there of me being me. If a different sperm had made it to that egg, if mum hadn't been in the mood that day, if mum and dad had fallen for someone else instead, what about grandma and grandpa? if they hadn't got together. Wow, the mind boggles. The chances against me being born are stupidly horrendously infinitesimally small, almost negligible.

I shouldn't be here, I shouldn't be me. It just doesn't make sense that I am here.

But then someone tells me about god. It completely makes sense. God made me in his image, god made this place for me (I mean) us. I was meant to be, god had a plan and I was always going to be in it. God loves me and wants me to come to heaven with him afterwards. It's all part of god's plan, and now I know my purpose.

But then someone tells me about evolution. You've got to be fu%#ing kidding, right. You look like a damn monkey, me, god created me in his image, I'm special, not just some outrageous random chance, an evolved monkey for god's sake! God is bigger than you and me, he created us because he loves us, he loves me. I'm special I tell you, all of creation was made for me (I mean) us.  

You can shove that fu%#ing monkey up your a$$ you c@ck s&%king atheist, devil worshiping child of godless wh%re. F%$k you, who the F*%@ do you and your %&king d*&^% t%$^ pri#k.

You just need to believe you d%&kwad, you filthy p%$!n w*nk#r, go k&ll yo%$self, and sh*t and die.

God loves you, you know. God IS love, why are you such a blind p&n!sfaced jockstrap and deny this fact. God doesn't want your hate and lies. You monkey lover, why don't you just go back to the jungle where you belong, F&*ck You!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Made my day that much brighter. And I think one of the main reasons people still believe is as a security blanket. So that if God is real, and heaven as well as hell do exists, by believing one is guaranteed as spot in Heaven.
"Accepting the truth and keeping faith is a strong thing to do. Mixing the two however, is the dumbest thing you've ever attempted." - Radical Ostriches Bringing Eternal Requiem Tonight
Advocate for the abnormal.

MadBomr101

Quote from: Stevil on September 05, 2011, 08:45:02 AMHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Made my day that much brighter. And I think one of the main reasons people still believe is as a security blanket. So that if God is real, and heaven as well as hell do exists, by believing one is guaranteed as spot in Heaven.

It's Pacal's Wager.  I think a lot of people drink the Xian kool-aid just in case.
- Bomr
I'm waiting for the movie of my life to be made.  It should cost about $7.23 and that includes the budget for special effects.

Pharaoh Cat

I will add the fact that people often need to believe in a just universe.  They need to believe justice is part of the overall cause and effect of nature.  And so the murderer dies of illness or accident and this is attributed to angry ghosts, or vengeance demons, or the August Supreme Emperor of Jade.  A universe indifferent to murder is unthinkable to many.  The atheist accepts that if humans fail to avenge murder, then murder will go forever unavenged, for neither bacteria nor viruses, nor gravity nor the laws of motion, nor poisonous nor mighty-jawed beasts, nor weather on land or sea, cares a whit for our mourning.
   


     
"The Logic Elf rewards anyone who thinks logically."  (Jill)

Stevil

Quote from: Pharaoh Cat on December 26, 2011, 12:23:16 PM
I will add the fact that people often need to believe in a just universe.  They need to believe justice is part of the overall cause and effect of nature.  And so the murderer dies of illness or accident and this is attributed to angry ghosts, or vengeance demons, or the August Supreme Emperor of Jade.  A universe indifferent to murder is unthinkable to many.  The atheist accepts that if humans fail to avenge murder, then murder will go forever unavenged, for neither bacteria nor viruses, nor gravity nor the laws of motion, nor poisonous nor mighty-jawed beasts, nor weather on land or sea, cares a whit for our mourning.
Very good post.

Pharaoh Cat

If you're an atheist, you acknowledge that your life will have no purpose, no justice, no hope, no beauty, and no wisdom, unless you put yourself out on a limb, exposed, vulnerable, fallible, unsure.  The theist, by contrast, dares no such thing, but looks instead to God for purpose by fiat, justice by fiat, hope and beauty and wisdom by fiat.
"The Logic Elf rewards anyone who thinks logically."  (Jill)

Asmodean

Quote from: Pharaoh Cat on December 29, 2011, 03:03:17 AM
fiat.

Dreadful cars. The Asmos, they do things by Volkswagen  ;D
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Twentythree

I would imagine that the root of religion comes from 2 very basic evolutionary tools. Reciprocal altruism and societal hierarchy or dominance. So in order for a community of proto humans to exist they would have had to develop the very basic forms of reciprocal altruism. A basic principal that says I do a thing for you, you do a thing for me or better yet, I give you something and I will receive something in return (You pick my ticks and I'll pick yours).

Primitive humans got everything they needed from the earth, it stands to reason then that if I wanted something from the earth i.e food or water, it would make sense in my primitive mind that if I give the earth something, I will get what I want from the earth. This could have been the birth of ritual and sacrifice. I give the earth my precious blood, or a special song or dance then in turn I should get what I want from the earth. If you couple this with a tendency toward hierarchal dominance in a group then the alpha of the group will be the one who is responsible for the protection of the group. This would impart a special social responsibility to the alpha of the group to engage in a tit for tat type of reciprocal altruism with the earth. The earth then gives to the alpha, the alpha then gives to the group, in one fell swoop both chiefs and gods are born and the nearly constant theme that chiefs/kings/pharos are as gods or the portal to gods has begun.
It did not have to be the whole earth in the beginning either it could have been something as simple as a river. We live near this river. We get precious water and food from the river. The river cannot get to the forest so I will take precious and beautiful things form the forest, such as food, flowers etc. and give it to the river. If I give it to the river the river should run strong and clean and give us food because that is what I want from the river. I believe my chief has the most influence with the river so instead I will give precious things form the forest to the chief, the chief will then give to the river the river will continue to give us food and water.

This could be even more the case in agrarian groups where the influence of the river is seasonal. Some yeas we come by this place and the river is full of clean water and food. Other years we come by and the water is dirty and the food is foul. If I give I shall receive and therefore when we are in the plains I will collect berries and flowers to give to the river. I will please the river and the river will want to please me so next time we visit it will be full of food and clean water.

It is not hard then to see why soon thereafter ritual sacrifice and the erection of temples for gods and chiefs alike became the norm in virtually all ancient human societies. I build you a temple you give me rain. If you were to couple group dominance and altruism with imagination then it is not hard to see how a chief could be bestowed with all sorts of powers. Give a gift to the chief and he will give you a baby. When that chief dies you then give gifts to the altar of the chief and so on and so forth. Until we are where we are today. God the ultimate alpha responsible for all woes and joys on earth. We sacrifice mortal compulsion in hopes that we will be given all the things we need in this life and beyond. It is a reciprocal altruistic relationship that modern humans have with god. I give you my time, love, devotion, I make sacrifices by refraining from perceived evils all in the hopes that I will get what's coming to me in the end.

Sweetdeath

Quote from: Pharaoh Cat on December 29, 2011, 03:03:17 AM
If you're an atheist, you acknowledge that your life will have no purpose, no justice, no hope, no beauty, and no wisdom, unless you put yourself out on a limb, exposed, vulnerable, fallible, unsure.  The theist, by contrast, dares no such thing, but looks instead to God for purpose by fiat, justice by fiat, hope and beauty and wisdom by fiat.


I've actually heard theists say that  everything in their lives is because of god and fate. I control my own life. If they want to  believe that, I say wow. Pretty lazy.
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

Pharaoh Cat

#71
Quote from: Twentythree on December 29, 2011, 09:30:22 PM
Primitive humans got everything they needed from the earth, it stands to reason then that if I wanted something from the earth i.e food or water, it would make sense in my primitive mind that if I give the earth something, I will get what I want from the earth.

That's interesting.  It implies a failure to distinguish accurately between the animate and inanimate - and here's the really interesting part, for me: I have observed this in my cat!  I play with her often using a toy, a long, stuffed plushy.  I wrestle her with it and chase her with it.  She seems to love these games.  I have seen her on many occasions attack the toy with gusto, when I wasn't playing with her, and the toy was lying there on the floor, immobile.  I get the distinct impression that she expects or at least hopes the toy will wrestle her or chase her even when it's not in my hand!  I think she fails to distinguish accurately between the animate and inanimate.

"The Logic Elf rewards anyone who thinks logically."  (Jill)

Pharaoh Cat

I think another reason for wanting to believe in God might be the idea that somehow it provides a better answer to the endless string of "Why" questions a child might ask about the universe. 

Curious Kate: "Why does every action have an equal and opposite reaction?"
Theist: "God."
Atheist: "That's just the way it is."

Curious Kate: "Why is there anything rather than nothing?"
Theist: "God."
Atheist: "That's just the way it is."

But of course the God answer is merely a delaying tactic. 

Curious Kate: "Why does an object at rest tend to stay at rest?"
Theist: "God."
Curious Kate: "But why did God do that?"
Theist: "That's just the way He rolls."
Curious Kate: "Why is there a God at all?"
Theist: "That's just the way it is."

I have sympathy for the discomfort some feel when confronted with the answer, "That's just the way it is."  I feel that discomfort myself.  I hate acknowledging that some things just are - that some attributes or elements of reality are fundamental, axiomatic, inexplicable.  But that's just the way it is.

Not too long ago I expressed bewilderment as to why it didn't seem to bug anyone that an army of glorified amoebas in our skulls, connected so chemicals can flow between them, learn language, learn science, learn math.  Why do microscopic blobs networked into a web via dendrites learn sports, learn geography, learn manners, learn logic?  The answer seems to be, "That's just the way it is."  Sapience seems to be a fundamental, axiomatic, inexplicable principle of reality when microbes chain themselves together and pass chemicals back and forth.  I hate that answer.  But I think that answer may be correct.  It may be that sapience in a healthy brain just is.  As the universe just is.  As the laws of motion just are.





"The Logic Elf rewards anyone who thinks logically."  (Jill)

Ecurb Noselrub

Quote from: Pharaoh Cat on December 30, 2011, 09:59:07 AM
 I think she fails to distinguish accurately between the animate and inanimate.

She has no theory of minds.

Pharaoh Cat

I think another reason people subscribe to the God concept would be the rationale it provides for trusting in progress.  If some intelligent force is in control of events, we have reason to hope for an inexorable rising and advancing.  Without God, life can and very well may descend or retreat. 

In the wild, if shedding complexity yields sufficient advantage in terms of needing fewer calories, or being less vulnerable to germ or poison, or being smaller and thus able to adventure in some niche or hide in some refuge previously too small for you, then reduced complexity may proliferate, and the species that might otherwise have continued to rise and advance all the way to technology might instead descend and retreat into a life not unlike that of a squirrel's. 

As with creatures in the wild, so too with human civilization.  In our cities and towns, catering or submitting to stupidity may enable economic or political safety or gain.  If so, stupidity will proliferate, not only naturally, but also by design, as those who benefit push society at bottom, middle, and top, in the direction of imbecility, and a civilization that might otherwise have built cities on Mars might instead sink down into the bread and circuses of an imploding empire.

If retrogression wins, retrogression proliferates.  But God wouldn't let that happen, right?
"The Logic Elf rewards anyone who thinks logically."  (Jill)