Incident at amusement park involving muslims

[Tank]

Fashion is a personal statement and clothes have also been closely associated with tribalism and orthopraxy ever since there have been clothes. I don't care what a person wears, up to the point where their clothing does not impinge on my safety/security. Loose and/or long clothing in the vicinity of machinery is dangerous, that is self-evident. Facial coverings are an issue when a person's identity needs to be confirmed.

However on a personal level I find the vail offensive, dehumanising and oppressive, but I also find the bikini offensive, dehumanising and oppressive as I don't see anything wrong/evil about the human body.

I wasn't discussing what women should or should not be wearing. You misunderstood my point. I was addressing the statement that they should just take it off.

This isn't about Islam, and this isn't about religion. Women all over the world choose to cover certain parts of their body, and it shouldn't matter what you or I want them to uncover. If they want to keep a certain part covered for whatever reason they have in their head, it would be quite silly to want them to just uncover.

You have every right to disagree with their reasons for covering, you do not have the right to reach your hand and uncover them against their will. Unless it's for safety reasons or whatever rules a certain place has. But then again, this is something that should be enforced by the representatives of law and not just random people on the street.

How many non-muslim women 'choose' to cover their faces?

In my experience security guards are not hired for their tact or intelligence. 

[Lecter]

How many non-muslim women 'choose' to cover their faces?

In my experience security guards are not hired for their tact or intelligence. 

So only non Muslim women can wear what they want? And if it's a Muslim women then that gives you the right to force them to uncover?

Again, I don't discriminate between women because of religion, any woman can wear what she wants, and even if I disagree with her reasons, I don't have the right to force her to uncover.

By the way, I haven't yet commented on this specific incident. I was making a comment about a reply I read here.

[Tank]

How many non-muslim women 'choose' to cover their faces?

In my experience security guards are not hired for their tact or intelligence. 

So only non Muslim women can wear what they want? And if it's a Muslim women then that gives you the right to force them to uncover?

How many non-muslim women 'choose' to cover their faces? Answer: Very, very, few, if any. If a woman wants to wear a vail that's fine by me, however there are places, all culturally Arab/Islamic(?), where women have to cover their faces. In the case of Saudi Arabia they can be beaten for not wearing one. Is that not so? Now if some insensitive and ignorent security guard touches any clothing of any person without good reason they are in the wrong, face vails included.

Again, I don't discriminate between women because of religion, any woman can wear what she wants, and even if I disagree with her reasons, I don't have the right to force her to uncover.

Well we know you are quite open minded about other people's views and gender and all kinds of stuff, you hang out with Medusa! I wouldn't expect you to discriminate between anybody based on their religion.

By the way, I haven't yet commented on this specific incident. I was making a comment about a reply I read here.

Understood.

[Sweetdeath]

*sigh* ....  Seriously?  Joking or not, you dont know me to say such "humor."

But ok, i'll just respond by saying they are raised to cover their face, but outside the middle east/egypt, they  need to learn to adapt to other countries policies and laws.

Your reply supports exactly what I was trying to say. You took offense because I asked you to 'just take a garment off'. Now you know exactly what those women feel like when someone says, 'just take it off, it's no big deal'.

Always, remember that feeling.

Fashion is a personal statement and clothes have also been closely associated with tribalism and orthopraxy ever since there have been clothes. I don't care what a person wears, up to the point where their clothing does not impinge on my safety/security. Loose and/or long clothing in the vicinity of machinery is dangerous, that is self-evident. Facial coverings are an issue when a person's identity needs to be confirmed.

However on a personal level I find the vail offensive, dehumanising and oppressive, but I also find the bikini offensive, dehumanising and oppressive as I don't see anything wrong/evil about the human body.

I wasn't discussing what women should or should not be wearing. You misunderstood my point. I was addressing the statement that they should just take it off.

This isn't about Islam, and this isn't about religion. Women all over the world choose to cover certain parts of their body, and it shouldn't matter what you or I want them to uncover. If they want to keep a certain part covered for whatever reason they have in their head, it would be quite silly to want them to just uncover.

You have every right to disagree with their reasons for covering, you do not have the right to reach your hand and uncover them against their will. Unless it's for safety reasons or whatever rules a certain place has. But then again, this is something that should be enforced by the representatives of law and not just random people on the street.

Ew, what a creeper's response.   e__e

[Tank]

*sigh* ....  Seriously?  Joking or not, you dont know me to say such "humor."

But ok, i'll just respond by saying they are raised to cover their face, but outside the middle east/egypt, they  need to learn to adapt to other countries policies and laws.

Your reply supports exactly what I was trying to say. You took offense because I asked you to 'just take a garment off'. Now you know exactly what those women feel like when someone says, 'just take it off, it's no big deal'.

Always, remember that feeling.

Fashion is a personal statement and clothes have also been closely associated with tribalism and orthopraxy ever since there have been clothes. I don't care what a person wears, up to the point where their clothing does not impinge on my safety/security. Loose and/or long clothing in the vicinity of machinery is dangerous, that is self-evident. Facial coverings are an issue when a person's identity needs to be confirmed.

However on a personal level I find the vail offensive, dehumanising and oppressive, but I also find the bikini offensive, dehumanising and oppressive as I don't see anything wrong/evil about the human body.

I wasn't discussing what women should or should not be wearing. You misunderstood my point. I was addressing the statement that they should just take it off.

This isn't about Islam, and this isn't about religion. Women all over the world choose to cover certain parts of their body, and it shouldn't matter what you or I want them to uncover. If they want to keep a certain part covered for whatever reason they have in their head, it would be quite silly to want them to just uncover.

You have every right to disagree with their reasons for covering, you do not have the right to reach your hand and uncover them against their will. Unless it's for safety reasons or whatever rules a certain place has. But then again, this is something that should be enforced by the representatives of law and not just random people on the street.

Ew, what a creeper's response.   e__e

Sweetdeath, that's very uncivil thing to say about or to another member.

[Medusa]

On a personal level here.....
Hassan's mother does not wear a veil.
I do not wear a veil.
I will be making a decision to wear a veil when I marry Hassan.

All of these are choices made by women. None of them were made by any husbands.
Which one is not allowed?

How many non-muslim women 'choose' to cover their faces? Answer: Very, very, few, if any. If a woman wants to wear a vail that's fine by me, however there are places, all culturally Arab/Islamic(?), where women have to cover their faces. In the case of Saudi Arabia they can be beaten for not wearing one. Is that not so? Now if some insensitive and ignorent security guard touches any clothing of any person without good reason they are in the wrong, face vails included.

You bring up an excellent point! I have always believed those are culteral customs as opposed to Islamic customs. Take Saudi Arabia as you say. You have certain decency laws there (that also cover men). Now in Malaysia (the largest population of Muslims) they wear veils in a very different way. Almost like one would wear when doing errands around here. I have a large Malaysian bowling group that comes in and bowls regularly. They show some hair. At the Vatican women enter the Catholic church with a veiled head covering usually of lace. In Mexico older women do the same thing. In American older Hispanic Catholics do it while other younger ones do not. It's not the religion. It's the interpretation of the religion AND the culture you happen to be in. The same way Jewish women either wear a scarf or the more popular and less known fact that they do in fact cover their hair...with wigs. Depending upon the culture they are in.

As for beating women? I am pretty sure Non Theists beat the shit out of women too.

[Tank]

On a personal level here.....
Hassan's mother does not wear a veil.
I do not wear a veil.
I will be making a decision to wear a veil when I marry Hassan.

All of these are choices made by women. None of them were made by any husbands.
Which one is not allowed?

How many non-muslim women 'choose' to cover their faces? Answer: Very, very, few, if any. If a woman wants to wear a vail that's fine by me, however there are places, all culturally Arab/Islamic(?), where women have to cover their faces. In the case of Saudi Arabia they can be beaten for not wearing one. Is that not so? Now if some insensitive and ignorent security guard touches any clothing of any person without good reason they are in the wrong, face vails included.

You bring up an excellent point! I have always believed those are culteral customs as opposed to Islamic customs. Take Saudi Arabia as you say. You have certain decency laws there (that also cover men). Now in Malaysia (the largest population of Muslims) they wear veils in a very different way. Almost like one would wear when doing errands around here. I have a large Malaysian bowling group that comes in and bowls regularly. They show some hair. At the Vatican women enter the Catholic church with a veiled head covering usually of lace. In Mexico older women do the same thing. In American older Hispanic Catholics do it while other younger ones do not. It's not the religion. It's the interpretation of the religion AND the culture you happen to be in. The same way Jewish women either wear a scarf or the more popular and less known fact that they do in fact cover their hair...with wigs. Depending upon the culture they are in.

As for beating women? I am pretty sure Non Theists beat the shit out of women too.

My point was not aimed at physical violence between individuals of either gender or any theistic or atheistic alignment. I was referring specifically to the  Committee for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice (Saudi Arabia) (aka Mutaween) and in particular their roll in "checking that women wear the abaya, a traditional all-enveloping black cloak.". The Mutaween beat people with sticks who do not adhere to the strict Saudi dress code, women have no choice about what they wear in public.

[Ihateyoumike]

Oh! Thanks for correcting me.   I'll remember the proper name for the terms now.

You'd better - or I'll put a jihad on you too!








/end reference

[Sweetdeath]

Oh! Thanks for correcting me.   I'll remember the proper name for the terms now.

You'd better - or I'll put a jihad on you too!



/end reference

Oh ho ho xP  but i'm sure wearing that thing is totally  opinional~?

[DeterminedJuliet]

The custom may be cultural or it may be religious, but that doesn't mean that women covering themselves and men remaining un-covered doesn't have certain gendered implications no matter what the reason or how they feel about it. Any form or clothing, or lack of clothing, is a social comment. I'm not saying that it's "evil" or anything like that, and I wear clothes just like anyone else, but you can dissect the sociology behind something and still participate in it.

If you want to wear a veil, I'd say go for it, but I think it's a little silly to say that there's no reasonable interpretation that it's sexist. Women wear them and men don't. Only one sex. Sexist by definition.

[MathKat]

So, this happened in New York today at the Ride playland amusement park.

After celebrating Ramadan,    group of muslims  decided to go to park, but when muslim women refused to remove their headscarves, it got ugly.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/wild-scene-erupts-at-playland-police-arrest-15-in-dispute-over-muslim-hijab/

This is not first time it happened.:
http://m.smh.com.au/nsw/family-sees-mother-strangled-by-hijab-in-freak-gokarting-accident-20100408-rvci.html#ixzz1WZUDZQWH

So I think the police did waaaay over react, I feel as if this was a safety issue, and it's not fair to conpromise safety for religious beliefs.




Edit: hnnn.. Perhaps I should of posted this in Religion?

I'm not saying the park's rules weren't reasonable, that they shouldn't have been followed, or that the police overreacted.  I'm just a little skeptical of the source of this article.  Here is another article from the New York Daily News that puts a slightly different twist on the event.

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-08-31/news/30114102_1_head-scarf-head-scarves-muslims

I found this particularly interesting:

He said park officials were in the process of arranging refunds when members of the Muslim group got into a scuffle with each other.

"We requested a refund and all of a sudden an argument became a riot," Alrabah said. "Cops came. They were hitting my brother, my dad. My husband was on the floor and they were handcuffing him.

The article does later state:

Many Muslims were given refunds as they left the park disappointed.

It just seems to me as if the article from the Blaze was written from a biased standpoint. 

As far as the issue with the headdresses go, this is just yet reason why blind obedience to rules set forth by religion is illogical.  I have a friend who is an orthodox Jew who came to this conclusion when she gave birth to her second child.  Orthodox Jews also require women to wear head coverings.  She was really sick after giving birth and was in the hospital for several days with a high fever.  Her father-in-law came to visit her and refused to the enter the hospital room unless she covered her head (which of course you can't do if you have a fever).  She was so insulted by this gesture that since then she has decided that covering her head is only necessary when she see's fit and often goes without it.