Religious based sexism

[Tank]

I understand what you mean, Tank. Break the chain and stuff.
It's true, ganging up on the religious circle itself won't help, but damn it, they frustrate me.

Me to.

[Stevil]

Spot on. So you see no differentiation to culpability under the secular law should be made because of religious affiliation?

These people are entitled to have their places of worship, they are entitled to meet and discuss or teach their religion, they can print their books, they can promote their religion. They can have their private schools. I am fine with this.
But I feel they ought to be held accountable under the laws of our society just like everyone else.

[Tank]

Spot on. So you see no differentiation to culpability under the secular law should be made because of religious affiliation?

These people are entitled to have their places of worship, they are entitled to meet and discuss or teach their religion, they can print their books, they can promote their religion. They can have their private schools. I am fine with this.
But I feel they ought to be held accountable under the laws of our society just like everyone else.

Understood.

[xSilverPhinx]

Stevil, I would be one of the last people to defend any religious institution, but I think that in the first example (sexism) they themselves are choosing to enter a career which promotes it, in a secular State. If they were trying to push that same idea of sexism onto other non-religious institutions and groups, then there would be a real problem. I don't see any real harm there in that restricted example, because people are choosing and not pushing that on others. It is distasteful and outdated, I agree. Maybe in a few centuries they'll catch up...

As for crimes which clearly harm others such as pedophilia or even obstruct the justice system such as hiding people who confessed to a crime, I think that secular authorities need to step in. Criminals should not be hidden just because they're affiliated with any religion.

[Tank]

Stevil, I would be one of the last people to defend any religious institution, but I think that in the first example (sexism) they themselves are choosing to enter a career which promotes it, in a secular State. If they were trying to push that same idea of sexism onto other non-religious institutions and groups, then there would be a real problem. I don't see any real harm there in that restricted example, because people are choosing and not pushing that on others. It is distasteful and outdated, I agree. Maybe in a few centuries they'll catch up...

As for crimes which clearly harm others such as pedophilia or even obstruct the justice system such as hiding people who confessed to a crime, I think that secular authorities need to step in. Criminals should not be hidden just because they're affiliated with any religion.

I think the issue is the Catholic kids who have no choice whether they are brought up in a sexist environment.

[xSilverPhinx]

Stevil, I would be one of the last people to defend any religious institution, but I think that in the first example (sexism) they themselves are choosing to enter a career which promotes it, in a secular State. If they were trying to push that same idea of sexism onto other non-religious institutions and groups, then there would be a real problem. I don't see any real harm there in that restricted example, because people are choosing and not pushing that on others. It is distasteful and outdated, I agree. Maybe in a few centuries they'll catch up...

As for crimes which clearly harm others such as pedophilia or even obstruct the justice system such as hiding people who confessed to a crime, I think that secular authorities need to step in. Criminals should not be hidden just because they're affiliated with any religion.

I think the issue is the Catholic kids who have no choice whether they are brought up in a sexist environment.

Right, until they're old enough to think for themselves, which I concede, doesn't happen too often. Are Catholics (in general) as sexist in other areas of their lives? As in, does Church hierarchy have that sort of mental influence on people? 

[Tank]

Stevil, I would be one of the last people to defend any religious institution, but I think that in the first example (sexism) they themselves are choosing to enter a career which promotes it, in a secular State. If they were trying to push that same idea of sexism onto other non-religious institutions and groups, then there would be a real problem. I don't see any real harm there in that restricted example, because people are choosing and not pushing that on others. It is distasteful and outdated, I agree. Maybe in a few centuries they'll catch up...

As for crimes which clearly harm others such as pedophilia or even obstruct the justice system such as hiding people who confessed to a crime, I think that secular authorities need to step in. Criminals should not be hidden just because they're affiliated with any religion.

I think the issue is the Catholic kids who have no choice whether they are brought up in a sexist environment.

Right, until they're old enough to think for themselves, which I concede, doesn't happen too often. Are Catholics (in general) as sexist in other areas of their lives? As in, does Church hierarchy have that sort of mental influence on people? 

I don't know, but there are loads of ex-catholics here who will know theanswer.

[Sweetdeath]

Stevil, I would be one of the last people to defend any religious institution, but I think that in the first example (sexism) they themselves are choosing to enter a career which promotes it, in a secular State. If they were trying to push that same idea of sexism onto other non-religious institutions and groups, then there would be a real problem. I don't see any real harm there in that restricted example, because people are choosing and not pushing that on others. It is distasteful and outdated, I agree. Maybe in a few centuries they'll catch up...

As for crimes which clearly harm others such as pedophilia or even obstruct the justice system such as hiding people who confessed to a crime, I think that secular authorities need to step in. Criminals should not be hidden just because they're affiliated with any religion.

I think the issue is the Catholic kids who have no choice whether they are brought up in a sexist environment.

Yes, you CAN consent as an adult, but trust , being raised in a highly secist religion... It is hard to break away from that way of thought.
At a young age, especially likr 6/7, yout personally is developing.  Teaching a child acceptance, tolerance and diversity is crutial for their skills going into young teenage year.

[Stevil]

Stevil, I would be one of the last people to defend any religious institution, but I think that in the first example (sexism) they themselves are choosing to enter a career which promotes it

Hundreds of millions of people around the world belong to the Catholic church. They get brought up seeing this as acceptable behaviour.
I am just amazed that my own country allows this organisation to practice sexism in my own country, when clearly it is against the law. But it seems that every country lets them do this, despite their own laws.

[DeterminedJuliet]

I think in order to remove sexism from Catholicism, or any form of Christianity really, you'd pretty much have to throw out the bible. It is a completely male dominated book and belief system to its very core. As an ex-catholic myself, I'm not surprised that sexism has been persistent in Catholicism and it'll probably always be there in one form or another as long the roots stay the same.

That being said, I was an altar server when I was a kid and I was never made to feel that I was sub-par because I was a girl. I've never even heard of Catholics taking issue with female altar servers until today, actually! Not that that negates everything else, but I had a pretty positive experience, for the most part, when I was involved with the church, so you can take that for what you will  

[Medusa]

^
No one gender is better than the other.   e_e

I know. It's an example. I can think it all I want...at least for now.


I don't. It's an example. Cats are better then dogs. There. Send me to jail.

The point in there somewhere?
When you start pointing and picking...someone's gonna start pointing and picking at you. And one day you too will be on the other side of the fence.

What the crap are you even talking about? o_o

What Tank said.

[Stevil]

That being said, I was an altar server when I was a kid and I was never made to feel that I was sub-par because I was a girl. I've never even heard of Catholics taking issue with female altar servers until today, actually!

Just to ensure you don't think I am making it up, here are some quotes. Of course I am only posting the sexist ones, there are some people there that are supportive of femal alter servers. But I just find it difficult reading some of this stuff.

I've always been against female altar servers, though you make a valid point.

But the girls that are altar serving should first understand, that priesthood is a guy thing. And so is altar serving.

I don't believe in female altar servers, and I agree with the Church's position that preference should be given to male altar servers.
However,I don't think altar girls will in themselves destroy vocations to the priesthood or make little girls all want to become priests. I see altar girls as more symptomatic of bigger problems in the Church.

More problematic is that the whole original push for altar girls was driven by a feminist agenda of "gender equality" (believing that men and women should have exactly the same roles in society and the Church) rather than by any genuine religious need, and that this practice was carried out for many years in blatant opposition to Church discipline

There are not supposed to be girl servers in Byzantine Churches, although I've heard of at least one priest who permits it... Anyway, they're not supposed to

Serving at the altar as an alter boy was meant to be almost like an apprenticeship. The idea was the guide young men into the service of the Liturgy, and almost all priests came from them. This was the norm for centuries, perhaps millenia. It was changed probably due to new thoughts on gender and feminism

Having women serve at the altar serves no necessary purpose

from a liturgical perspective, it's absolutely a mistake to have female altar servers. everyone here is looking at this from a practical perspective, almost a marketing perspective: "what will attract more vocations?" et cetera. while that is an interesting subject, and I do think having altar boys act as apprenticeships, as it were, do help foster vocations, that is not the only thing to consider.

Boys serve at the altar partly as a way to introduce youths to the priesthood, which is for males only. Currently, the vast majority of altar servers do not become priests. However, this trend can and should change. Boys should be encouraged to consider the priesthood from an early age. And they should be encouraged to become altar servers as a good first introduction to the priesthood. But if girls serve along side boys, the role of altar server will not be viewed by the children or their parents as an introduction to the role of a priest. One might say that the role of altar girl can be an introduction for the girls to the religious life, so that boys would see serving at the altar as a precursor to the role of a priest, and girls would see it as a precursor to the role of a religious sister. This view is incorrect. It is not the role of women religious to serve at the altar. Nuns are called to the consecrated life for prayer, self-sacrifice, and works of mercy. Nuns are not called to take those roles which are most fitting only for the ordained, but which do not absolutely require ordination. There are certain roles in the Church which require ordination, and other roles which, while not absolutely requiring ordination, are most fitting only for the ordained.

[OldGit]

Boys serve at the altar partly as a way to introduce youths to the priesthood...

Precisely.  Where else would the priests get 'em? 

[DeterminedJuliet]

I find those examples pretty annoying, but I comfort myself with the knowledge that the Catholic church is dying a slow death in a lot of areas.  My father is pretty "old school Catholic", and when he gets on with his foolishness about gay marriage or abortion or whatever, I just remind myself that that particular legacy in our family dies with him (neither of my sisters are religious, either). Unless Catholicism really starts pushing evangelism (which I don't think it will), I'm willing to bet that it going to be close to extinct, in the western world, at least, in the next couple of generations.   

I think the way to win people over is by continuing to show good sense and reason. I think that goes for religious ideology and sexist ideology (or, in this case, both)

[Sweetdeath]

That's hard to read indeed.  I do take a bit of hopefulness that college has opened ip many minds.  I think a lot of children of religious parents go out into the REAL world and see that not everyone follows an outdated mythology.

I really want to see the fall of religion.  Or at least the fall of Catholosim before I die...