Tottenham (North London) riot questions for you UKers

[Gawen]

So last night a riot breaks out because police stop a taxi in a preplanned stop, there's a shootout with the taxi's customer and the cops kill him (last Thursday)?
What are these "stop and search practices" by police?
Why do Tottenhams ethnic minorities think it's wrong to kill a man who's trying to kill police?
Just curious.

[Tank]

So last night a riot breaks out because police stop a taxi in a preplanned stop, there's a shootout with the taxi's customer and the cops kill him (last Thursday)?
What are these "stop and search practices" by police?
Why do Tottenhams ethnic minorities think it's wrong to kill a man who's trying to kill police?
Just curious.

Stop and search was a hot topic a while ago as the ratio of white:black people searched was about 1:10. The Met Police that cover Tottenmam were inspected a few years ago and found to be 'institutionally racist'. So the cops have had a bad rep and there are always those who want a fight.

From the little I heard on the TV this morning the locals are pretty fed up with what happened and it looks like the majority of the trouble came from people looking for an excuse to have a fight with the cops.

The 'excuse' was that the cops were stone walling the family of the person the police shot, in fact it does look like the police seriously miss handled the PR on this case. That's not surprising as the Met' have so much on their plate that they just get it really wrong sometimes.

[Gawen]

hmmmm...ok. But, if you please, explain to me this "Stop and Search" procedure? Can the cops just stop and search a person?

[Tank]

hmmmm...ok. But, if you please, explain to me this "Stop and Search" procedure? Can the cops just stop and search a person?

Here is the appropriate police rules for the area concerned http://www.met.police.uk/stopandsearch/what_is.htm

[Ragnar]

The 'excuse' was that the cops were stone walling the family of the person the police shot, in fact it does look like the police seriously miss handled the PR on this case.

That may be so. But the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) are investigating the shooting of Mark Duggan, as is standard practise after a police shooting.  I suspect that the police did not say anything because they probably can't comment on a matter which is subject to enquiry.

The IPCC are in contact with Mark Duggan's family, and are already keeping them informed of what is going on. 

http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/news/Pages/pr060811_tottenham.aspx

So we have a man shot by the police on Thursday, and by Saturday there is a protest outside the local police station, by people demanding answers, and justice for Mark Duggan, while the IPCC are still conducting their investigation.

Black men may be 8-10 times more likely to be stopped and searched by the police, but statistics show that black men are held responsible for the majority of gun and knife crime in London, the figures also show that black men are more likely to be victims of these crimes too.

So while I can sympathise with anger over being stopped and searched purely on the basis of race, I also don't think the police can't be entirely blamed for their approach.   

Me thinks there are many people in the black community who would do better to engage in some introspection, before blaming all their woes on the police.

[Gawen]

Me thinks there are many people in the black community who would do better to engage in some introspection, before blaming all their woes on the police.

The same can/should be said on this side of the pond.

So far, the articles I've read have not explained why Duggan was stopped and searched.

Thanks for the link, Tank. It's the same way over here.

[Willow]

I think we need to look at this in the historical context of specific racist police directives being one of the causes of the Notting Hill Riots in 1958.
http://www.20thcenturylondon.org.uk/server.php?show=conInformationRecord.161
The police have historically been adversarial towards ethnic minorities in London and elsewhere in the UK.  This combined with the racist stereotype of the black criminal means that even if a white man commits the same act as a black man, he is less likely to be arrested, charged, convicted, and will then receive a lighter sentence.

The black community learnt from the death of Stephen Lawrence who was murdered in 1999 that the police will not help them.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/lawrence

Change is slow, but (i hope) positive, and we now have some (but too few) ethnic minorities amongst the police and the police are working to try not to be racist.

The fear and mistrust of the police by ethnic minorities is earned.  Crime statistics do not tell the whole story.
I didn't know about these riots.  Just reading them now.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/07/police-attack-london-burns
These riots sparked by the shooting of Duggan, will have other causes.  One death does not a riot make.

[Ragnar]

The police have historically been adversarial towards ethnic minorities in London and elsewhere in the UK.  This combined with the racist stereotype of the black criminal means that even if a white man commits the same act as a black man, he is less likely to be arrested, charged, convicted, and will then receive a lighter sentence.

Do you have any evidence to support that? 

The police are responsible for arrests, and bringing charges, but after a charge is made, the case is handed over to the Crown Prosecution Service, which is a separate organisation to the police.  Obviously convictions and sentencing is done by the courts.  So if whites are getting lighter sentences than blacks, then that problem lies with the courts, not the police.

If anyone has any aggreivance with the police, they contact the IPCC which is also a separate organisation to the police.

The black community learnt from the death of Stephen Lawrence who was murdered in 1999 that the police will not help them.

That makes about as much sense as old folk not going to the doctors because of Harold Shipman. 

The MacPherson report missed the point by a mile.  The police are not institutionally racist, but there is an element of racist officers within the police force.  But these officers are not racist because of the institution they work in, they are either racist because of the background they grew up in, or they are inexperienced in working with ethnic minorites, atleast initially.

I also don't believe the police fouled up the Stephen Lawrence murder investigation because they were racist, but because the investigating officers were rubbish.  Unless were are talking about officers slightly to the right of Himmler, then I really can't imagine officers passing on the opportunity to get a result in a murder case, just because the victim is black.

The police also made a glaring horrocks of the Stuart Lubbock case, in catching the Yorkshire Ripper, the Krays should have been locked up long before they were, and there is a list as long as your arm of people, of all races, who spent years in prison for crimes they did not commit.

The truth of the matter is that there are good and bad coppers, and tarring all police with the same brush is as unjustifiable as tarring all blacks with the same brush. 

Crime statistics do not tell the whole story.

True, but they also can't be ignored either. 

[OldGit]

Leaving that argument behind:

These riots are now very serious indeed.  Last night it spread to many more areas of London, as well as Liverpool, Birmingham and Bristol.  Any pretence of racial issues has long been left behind; this is just mindless rioting and opportunistic looting.

On the BBC this morning I heard suggestions of bringing in water cannons, which has never happened in Great Britain, of deploying troops and imposing a curfew.  The Home Secretary refused to commit herself.

There is no doubt that this is being organised via Twitter, Blackberry Messaging and texting.

I am waiting for it to spread to France.

[Gawen]

Leaving that argument behind:

These riots are now very serious indeed.  Last night it spread to many more areas of London, as well as Liverpool, Birmingham and Bristol.  Any pretence of racial issues has long been left behind; this is just mindless rioting and opportunistic looting.

Yeah, I saw that this morning.

I am waiting for it to spread to France.

Why? And why would it spread to the continent?

[OldGit]

Why? And why would it spread to the continent?

These things spread so quickly nowadays with constant TV coverage.  The French are Europe's premier rioters, and they haven't had a good riot for a couple of years.  If it does cross the channel, I reckon the Frogs'll be the next.

[Evilbeagle]

I have to take issue with Ragnar's statement about the IPCC.

Technically the IPCC "is" separate from individual police forces but it allocates resources from different constabularies to investigate issues.

e.g. If investigating a police incident in the South of the country, they may choose to send police from the North of the country to investigate.

I believe they think that police from a different area will view the matter more objectively from local officers.

I don't subscribe to this idea. You still have cops investigating cops.

I personally believe there is a risk of cops "watching each other's backs".

[OldGit]

OFF TOPIC:
Lovers of the SF of Jack Vance will recognise the IPCC as the interworld police organisation of the Oikumene.