A discussion on homosexuality.

[leedan]

As homosexuality isn't a unique feature to the human species but the animal kingdom and is well documented (another example article in addition to those Tank posted 1,500 animal species practice homosexuality) homosexuality may be a natural component of life.

From an evolutionary perspective at one point life branched out from hermaphrodite species that contain both sexual organs such as gastropods, slugs, earthworms, and certain species of fish that had no sexual preference. This could mean that as life evolved into species with distinct genders there may have been an element of the "survival of the fittest" at play, the species that preferred to procreate with both sexes or the opposite sex had a better chance of survival than those that did not. There is the a question of when did sexual preference come into play, I am guessing this came into effect with the evolution of sexual attraction, there may have also been the case that none selective, forced, and tribal reproduction may also have played a role.

There is also the social benefits of homosexuality such as creating stronger bonds between people in the same community as seen in Ancient Greece or Ancient Japan so it may have been viewed as a social benefit regardless of reproduction.

I think you are exactly right. When men and women realize that we are all "bisexual" creatures, then we can truly live in harmony with eachother. It is just another hole that humanity has dug itself into in dealing with societal ideology. Men have nipples and women have very small penises. One might say that another million years of evolution could turn us asexual.

[Sweetdeath]

I don't think hismikeness was intending to discredit you especially not through a movie reference, but to make reference to a character that represents the nexus of bad information and strongly held opinion.

Davin- nailed it. That is exactly why I referenced Banky.
Sweetdeath, please believe that I was in no way trying to insult you, call you a liar, or accusing you af anything. If it came off that way I apologize. In hindsight, it may have not been the right kind of thread to reference that character as he was indeed very anti-lesbian (Banky, I mean). The movie is about a guy who falls for a girl, discovers she's gay, and decides to try and win her over and "turn" her straight. I assumed it to be popular enough that perhaps you'd seen it, or at least heard of it. If you like any Kevin Smith movies (Mallrats, Dogma, anything with Jay and Silent Bob) you'd know most of his characters are over the top stereotypes, and Banky is no exception.

Anyway, he says a line about gay women that is analogous to what you wrote before I mentioned the character.

I wasn't meaning to be a prick, if I came off that way.

Also, what is o_o and ~_~? are these emoticons?

Oooh, okay that is no problem. I didn't think you were calling me a liar in any way, I was just confused as to what you were referring to.

I don't watch a lot of movies. I'm more of a book and video game person. But I do appreciate the clarity.


Yes, I emote a lot as well. X3 <3

[Sweetdeath]

@leedan:
Seriously...  If we were just all stop judging people by their sexual organs, it would be nice.

[Tank]

Another thought has been bubbling up while reading this thread. Does having homosexual sexual activity make one homosexual? I would contend that it does not, simply because in extremis (e.g. sailors on long voyages) some men will resort to each other for relief. However would it only be the sailors with homosexual tendencies that would resort to mutual relief? Don't know, still a formative thought.

I would also be wary of a statement that 'all people are bisexual', because in a very large variable population (in the statistical sense) there would likely by members at the extremes. I would contend there will be people who are 100% heterosexual who have no sexual desires towards members of their own gender.

Is there such a thing as emotional sexual alignment that is not expressed along side a corresponding physical sexual alignment? This is the 'When Harry met Sally' question, although in that film the relationship is heterosexual. Can a person romantically 'love' another person without wishing to express that feeling physically?

These are questions that have been suppressed by theism. But as theism is the codification of a society's institutionalised superstition are the homophobic attitudes in the Abrahamic religions just a reflection of ancient societies attitudes brought about by their ignorance and tribalism?

[Sweetdeath]

Aw, Tank, I love that you are here.
I suppose homosexuality to me is defined by a strong sexual attraction to the same sex. You are aroused by them, want to be with them, etc.



I agree just having sex with the same sex doesn't make you gay. Ie: pirates on long voyages had sex. Also, monks if tibet are allowed to have sex with each other.   Not to mention, my favorites of the Sengoku period of Japan, big time General Nobunaga Oda had a   famous page named Ranmaru Mori, whom he engaged in sexual intercourse with, despite having a wife and son.

So yes, it has to be the want and sexual desire of same gender. At least that is how I see it. <3 ^___^

[Crow]

Maybe people are more inclined to bisexual tendencies than they like to admit. We can all distinguish who is attractive male or female, even though we may not find them to be sexually desirable. This also works on the side that people are more inclined towards, for instance I can think of many occasions where I would say the female is attractive but sexually they do nothing for me.

I read this article a few years ago about asexuality and thought it was quite apt to the discussion.

[DeterminedJuliet]

I know a guy who came out as gay and then realized that he's sexually attracted to men but romantically attracted to women.
As in, he wants to have sex with men, but when he imagines getting married/buying a house/settling down, he wants to do that with a woman.

so I'm not really sure where that would fall on the "spectrum"

[Sweetdeath]

@DeterminedJuliet:
That is an interesting tale. Though it sounds as if it may be more social pressure than sexuality for this person.

I dislike the term "settling down." It makes someome seem as if they have given up on life. :<

[Twentythree]

I'm 31 and I am "settling down". I am not "giving up on life", but I am realizing that I don't want to live like a 19-25 year old anymore. When I look at myself at a younger age I realize what an asshole I was. I was overly opinionated, pompous, and rude. I didn't take care of myself well. My relationships were shallow and circumstantial. Now that I'm entering my 30's I realize that I have so much more that I want to accomplish like being a father, a professional, I seek knowledge with more of an acute passion and have a stronger sense of my responsibility to humanity and the planet in general. I think settling down for me means allowing myself to live and thrive with a broader sense of purpose and a greater importance on long term goals. I have lost the need and the desire for the instant gratification and escapism that punctuated my early adulthood. I don't know, that is just how I define it. But of course I am defining it through my eyes as they see now I would have had a much different take on this 10 years ago. I am defiantly not giving up on life, just redefining my priorities. Just my 2 pennies, sorry for going a bit off topic here.

[Abletony]

Please note the quotation in this posts has been added for continuity as post with the title Re: Can culture/ideology turn a good person bad or visa versa? have been moved from a different thread.

I think there's an argument that as much influence as nature and nurture have on an individual, sometimes shit happens despite nature and nurture.  Sociopaths and psychopaths happen in good societies.  Are these bad people?  They don't necessarily think so.  Their view of good/bad is skewed to their own emotional deficiencies.  These sorts of things happen in the animal kingdom as well.  My experience that taught me that homosexuality was both normal and morally acceptable was watching the animal channel.  There was a program on elephants.  There was one young bull elephant that seemed to have a psychological disorder.  He displayed odd behavior that was at times even dangerous to the herd, and did not display the ability to learn from the discipline of the herd.  He was kicked out of the herd.  As an adult, he tried mounting females AND males from herds he happened upon, and killed a couple elephants in what the show's narrator called cold blood.  This taught me that animals have many of the same mental illnesses humans have.

Now before anybody gets mad, I'm not saying homosexuality is a mental illness... it isn't.  The American Psychological Association is VERY clear on this.  My degree is in social psychology, and I definitely agree with the APA.  What I'm saying is that when I saw animals have mental illnesses, it made me wonder what else animals and humans have in common that would surprise me.  Suicide, homosexuality, and recreational sex also surprised me.  When I saw that homosexuality exists in the animal kingdom, and that the other animals don't rebel against and kill the homosexual animals, I realized that the human species is really the only one that considers homosexuality abnormal. 

Anyway, tangents aside, I don't think there's any rule about nature vs. nurture that you also can't find many exceptions to.

Yeah but is homosexuality as common in animals as it is with people? I don't think it is.

[fester30]

Yeah but is homosexuality as common in animals as it is with people? I don't think it is.

It's not.  In fact it's rare in most species.  However, any species sufficiently advanced enough on the evolutionary ladder to have recreational sex has much higher levels of homosexuality than others.  Bonobos, chimps, and dolphins all have recreational sex, including same sex intercourse.  I think of it this way.  If sex isn't any fun then you're probably only going to do it when you're trying to reproduce.  If it is fun, you're probably going to try to stick your member in any number of things, or stick any number of things in your member.  To me, homosexuality is just as natural as masturbation.  Homophobic guys seem to think the act is gross but then will have anal sex with their girlfriends.  BONKERS!

[Abletony]

I hardly think there's anything wrong with a straight man considering a man putting his dick in another man's ass disgusting. It's all about personal taste. I say let them do what they like, but I personally find the thought rather yuk.

[Sweetdeath]

Do you think we could cut the homosexuality discussion on this thread please, it's a derail and not what this thread is about.

Thanks
Chris

Agreed.  And let's stop borderline bashing, abletony.  Keep your opinions on homosexuals to yourself please, as it seems you may have issues with them.  This is suppose to be a civl board.

((Aw, I like dolphins and their silly horny selves.  xD))

[Medusa]

Do you think we could cut the homosexuality discussion on this thread please, it's a derail and not what this thread is about.

Thanks
Chris

Agreed.  And let's stop borderline bashing, abletony.  Keep your opinions on homosexuals to yourself please, as it seems you may have issues with them.  This is suppose to be a civl board.

((Aw, I like dolphins and their silly horny selves.  xD))
 

Did you know Dolphins like to school the males together and go and have rape raids on the female dolphins?

[Sweetdeath]

No, I did not. What a buncha jerks. X__x    but straying away from that depressing topic, i'm gonna stop posting because i'm also too  off topic.