Question For Nimzo

[Gawen]

Until you show some willingness to engage with what I'm actually saying, I'm not going to waste any more time replying to you.

You know, a person could come here with a belief in the Greek Gods and spout...

I stopped reading here.

Your loss...*grinnin*

[Nimzo]

Too Few Lions: I thought my post was long, but you've bested me in terms of quantity here!  (As for quality, we shall see. )  Here's Part 1 of my reply!

You may well believe it, but I also think it's one hell of an assumption. Time factor of 2500-3000 years apart, I think if your conception of God is very different from that of the Jews 3000 years ago. For starters, surely you'd be a Jew and not a Christian if that was the case. While Christians seem to assume they worship the same god as the Jews, most Jews don't consider Christians as worshipping the same god. They view Christians as orphans looking for a father. The Jewish author Mr. S. Levin once succinctly wrote "'After all, we worship the same God', the Christian always says to the Jew and the Jew never to the Christian".
It's also questionable how monotheistic the Jews actually were beyond the 6th or 7th Centuries BCE. You also talk about 'historic people (from Abraham through to the apostles)' experiencing the same god, but obviously it's very debatable if those figures actually historically existed.

You have shifted your claim here from what you originally said:

I think it's rather naive to assume that the tribal god that the Israelites worshipped in the early to mid first century BCE is the same god that the early Christians worshipped.

I will happily accept that the Christian conception of God is in some respects different to the Jewish one: indeed I have already said as much in acknowledging that Christians believe more propositions about God (for example, Christians believe that God is tri-personal; but pre-Christian Jews don't seem to have made any claims about whether God is uni-personal or tri-personal – it is simply not a distinction that came to mind). But that is very different to accepting that the "Jewish God" and the "Christian God" are different Gods.  Our conception of gravity in the 21st century is different to a mediaeval 11th century conception of gravity; but nevertheless, it is the same gravity that both are conceiving of!

There is also a difference between mere conception of God (that is, God's nature), and conception of what God has done.  The obvious difference between Jews and Christians today is that the latter believe that God has done something in and by and through the person of Jesus (as I do).  Hence, a Christian is quite consistent in accepting what the "Jewish God" has done, but a Jew today clearly can't be consistent in accepting what the "Christian God" has done (without becoming a Christian!).

The question of historicity is obviously an important and massive question.  By the very nature of historical evidence (which is under-determinative) everything in history is questionable ad debatable.  You will have noticed that I say from Abraham and not from Adam or from Noah, and this should give you at least an indication that I am willing to go where the evidence leads.  The big debate (to my mind) is about what the genres of the biblical texts are.  If they are of a mythical genre (in the scholarly sense of "myth" not simply the sense of "fictional story"), as Gen 1-11 is for example, then that makes it very difficult to accept that such people as Abraham or Moses were historical people.  On the other hand if they were intended to be historical accounts, then that gives good reason to accept the historicity of these people, even if we would still want to question the historicity of the individual stories associated with them.  I'm happy to pursue this question with you (and the question of the dating of the texts which you briefly refer to later) – though we have lots to talk about already!

With respect to henotheism vs. monotheism, there are some more distinctions which I think are important.  The first is between what some ancient Hebrews practiced, and what is taught by the Old Testament.  Clearly, as even the Old Testament describes, many Jews worshipped other gods like Baal and Molech (though it is not clear whether they worshipped YHWH at the same time).  On the other hand, it is just as clear that the biblical writers see this as idolatry, and worshipping of false gods, when the faithful Hebrew only worships YHWH.

The second distinction is between henotheism involving the worship of only one God or many gods.  The Old Testament writers clearly affirm monolatry, and reject the validity of worshipping anything other that YHWH.  There is also, as far as I can ascertain, no explicit affirmation of the existence of other deities like Baal and Molech. 

[Too Few Lions]

Too Few Lions: I thought my post was long, but you've bested me in terms of quantity here!  (As for quality, we shall see. )  Here's Part 1 of my reply!

You may well believe it, but I also think it's one hell of an assumption. Time factor of 2500-3000 years apart, I think if your conception of God is very different from that of the Jews 3000 years ago. For starters, surely you'd be a Jew and not a Christian if that was the case. While Christians seem to assume they worship the same god as the Jews, most Jews don't consider Christians as worshipping the same god. They view Christians as orphans looking for a father. The Jewish author Mr. S. Levin once succinctly wrote "'After all, we worship the same God', the Christian always says to the Jew and the Jew never to the Christian".
It's also questionable how monotheistic the Jews actually were beyond the 6th or 7th Centuries BCE. You also talk about 'historic people (from Abraham through to the apostles)' experiencing the same god, but obviously it's very debatable if those figures actually historically existed.

You have shifted your claim here from what you originally said:

Fair point, I did sneakily change tack, sorry about that, it was accidental (honest). I forgot that I was originally talking about the early Christians and not you or other modern day Christians. I still think the point's valid though as you originally said you believe you experience the same god as Abraham. I think if you could go back in time 3000 or 4000 years and tried to explain your beliefs and your idea of god to the Jews or pre-Jewish Canaanites of the time,  their conception of god(s) would be very different, and they might even stone you to death for blasphemy!
Regarding the early Christians (and also the Jews of the time), I think both were influenced by Greek philosophy and Hellenism in general, and the Christian conception of god is markedly different to Yahweh of 2500 or 3000 years ago. To me as a non-Christian, your god seems far closer to the infinite transcendent god of Greek philosophy than Yahweh of the Old Testament. When you say that you 'only really understand what it means to be wise, good and beautiful in terms of who God is' you sound a lot like a Platonic philosopher!

I will happily accept that the Christian conception of God is in some respects different to the Jewish one: indeed I have already said as much in acknowledging that Christians believe more propositions about God (for example, Christians believe that God is tri-personal; but pre-Christian Jews don't seem to have made any claims about whether God is uni-personal or tri-personal – it is simply not a distinction that came to mind). But that is very different to accepting that the "Jewish God" and the "Christian God" are different Gods.  Our conception of gravity in the 21st century is different to a mediaeval 11th century conception of gravity; but nevertheless, it is the same gravity that both are conceiving of!

I don't think the gravity point is very pertinent, as gravity exists and is still the same physical force however one conceives it, but the Christian god isn't necessarily the same god as Yahweh. He's the god of the Jews, and most Jews would probably say that your god isn't their god. Numerous Christians throughout history have also said the same thing.

The question of historicity is obviously an important and massive question.  By the very nature of historical evidence (which is under-determinative) everything in history is questionable ad debatable.  You will have noticed that I say from Abraham and not from Adam or from Noah, and this should give you at least an indication that I am willing to go where the evidence leads.  The big debate (to my mind) is about what the genres of the biblical texts are.  If they are of a mythical genre (in the scholarly sense of "myth" not simply the sense of "fictional story"), as Gen 1-11 is for example, then that makes it very difficult

Personally I think the evidence leads us to conclude that Abraham and Moses are as mythical as Adam and Noah. I don't know how old the stories about the two are, the general story of the Israelites in Egypt and the Exodus was written sometime around the 7th Century BCE without any historical basis. This is some 700 years after the supposed life of Moses, and I imagine the gap between the first mention of Abraham and his supposed lifetime is probably nearer 1000 years. I can't seriously view biblical figures as having been real people when there's such a huge gap between their supposed existence and the authorship of the books mentioning them.

[xSilverPhinx]

I thought this part was interesting, would you call it an existential experience? If so, then how do you know if the feeling of experiencing 'god' is coming from within you or outside of you?

Anyways, I think I get the gist of what you're describing, sort of. I think.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "existential experience", but it was an experience of what I would call the presence of God, in contrast to the absence of God I had been experiencing before.  To answer your second question, I find it helpful to apply it to the experiences which we both share: our experiences of the external world.  How do we know that there is an external world?  Firstly, we have repeated, consistent experiences of it; secondly, external world realism makes sense of other beliefs that we hold.  I would say the same is true of my experiences of God, which have been repeated and consistent with one another, and that the existence of the Christian God has shed light onto everything else.

Let me further elaborate, even though it's not something I can explain very well with the right words:

Basically as if it were an explanation for your existence and something that gives your existence meaning. The thing that confuses me is how do you know whether the god you found which pulled you out of your increasing nihilism is not just a new and better way of viewing your existence that you found?

Thanks for the reply. Contrary to what you might think, your description is more or less what I expected.

[Stevil]

how do you know whether the god you found which pulled you out of your increasing nihilism is not just a new and better way of viewing your existence that you found?

How do you know that this god relates to Christianity and not some other religion?

[Twentythree]

What an ambush this turned out to be. I'm sorry Nimz, but you have to be careful with fueling this fire. There are a tremendous amount of people that post to this and other forums whose entire goal is to one up and break you down. Did you see that after your initial post there were no gentle questions asking you to expound on your ideas so we could all gain a deeper understanding of you as a person. You answered a direct question and were met with an onslaught of demands for you to defend your position. This is not a discussion but a battle, one in which you are at an unfortunate disadvantage. Making you immediately defensive is no way to have true discussion. Now just so I'm clear in one of your fist posts you made it seem as though religious experience that is consistent in your life leads you to the conclusion that this religious experience is true. You find truth not just in your belief of a god concept but what that god concept, what those spiritual interactions with god cause you to do. How it influences your interactions with the world is that right? If not please give more details. Also, did you find solace or despair in your nihilism, I find that it can go both ways.

[xSilverPhinx]

What an ambush this turned out to be. I'm sorry Nimz, but you have to be careful with fueling this fire. There are a tremendous amount of people that post to this and other forums whose entire goal is to one up and break you down. Did you see that after your initial post there were no gentle questions asking you to expound on your ideas so we could all gain a deeper understanding of you as a person. You answered a direct question and were met with an onslaught of demands for you to defend your position. This is not a discussion but a battle, one in which you are at an unfortunate disadvantage. Making you immediately defensive is no way to have true discussion.

I feel somewhat responsible for this, but it was not my intention to put Nimzo on the defensive but a genuine curiousity on how he (as a logical thinker) sees god. I don't agree with his views in terms of truth, but I'm not him so I can't really say.