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What's on your mind today?

Started by Steve Reason, August 25, 2007, 08:15:06 PM

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hermes2015

Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on August 16, 2022, 09:11:26 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on August 16, 2022, 05:09:24 PM—Without it, you get exactly what the Happy Atheist Forum is right now. Look at your members. But I'm sure that's exactly how the forum's administrator wants it.

I believe stubbornness on my part is the reason why I'm the only Latina in this homogeneous club. My opinions or ideas have brought nothing new or of value to the table.

I get it.
I actually got it a long time ago.
But that can change.


Even though I am a white male, I'm also a bit of an odd duck here, being one of "them", you know. For me it wasn't stubbornness as much as it was learning to see things from another perspective. Atheism was pretty much foreign to my world, so being here and on the old Sam Harris forum taught me a lot. It's like going to school in a foreign country.

I can understand very well what you mean. I have to admit that I've derived perverse pleasure on occasion from my own multiply-odd-duck status as a gay, half-Jewish atheist white male.  :wave hi:
"Eventually everything connects - people, ideas, objects. The quality of the connections is the key to quality per se."
― Charles Eames

Asmodean

Quote from: Magdalena on August 16, 2022, 05:09:24 PMI can see why Trump said he wanted more Norwegians to come live in the US instead of Haitians.
That's as may be, but the underlying question is valid. Is "Diversity is strength" a statement of faith? My argument here is that it is, the way it is being used in discourse today.

Far too many people to my liking (for what it's worth) shy away from even considering potential reasons why it must or must not be. It's... "Repeat it until you believe it." Yeah... No... Way too sceptical for that.

And even when you do get some generic politician "answer," it almost invariably tends to be limited to ethnic diversity. Yes, immigration can be a solution to certain problems, such a low birth rates and ageing population. Ethnic diversity as a by-product of immigration, however... Neither here nor there, if you ask me. Someone's skin tone in itself contributes nothing to the society one way or the other.

QuoteI'm just curious as to what percentage of the Norwegian population your opinion represents.
One. As in, one dude.

Still, seeing how I have not actually brought anything controversial to the table, beyond most heretically questioning the orthodoxy, I think a lot of people would broadly consider my questions valid.

If I had to estimate, I'd say that around 5% would just call me racist and be done with it - even though I was not the one to bring race to the table. Another 10% would softly side with the 5 and deem the question "heretical." The rest... either don't care one way or another, or would try to answer it as they see it. There is no one answer to it - what some view as strength, others might view as something else, so you'd get pretty much as many opinions as people.

As long as the conflicting variables are accounted for, I'm happy regardless of conclusion.


Quote"I mean...If you have to ask..."::)
Of course, you do. Well, if you are a sceptically-minded sort of person. What's the alternative? Just believe, obey and be silent?

Quote—Without it, you get exactly what the Happy Atheist Forum is right now. Look at your members. But I'm sure that's exactly how the forum's administrator wants it.

I believe stubbornness on my part is the reason why I'm the only Latina in this homogeneous club. My opinions or ideas have brought nothing new or of value to the table.
How do you know though? That you are the only Latina, that is? Personally, I know the ethnicity of only a couple of members here. You, because you told me. Tank, because... Prolly because I saw his picture somewhere. One or two others.

That said, this forum is a very "niche" bubble, and that niche is not an ethnic one. I frequent a couple of other forums and Discord servers, occupying other niches, and what I see is that if whatever niche it occupies is hot, the place gets loads of traffic. When it cools down, so does the activity. Happened on gaming sites, political servers... "Everywhere."

Our target audience here is mostly atheists or theists who want to engage with atheists for purposes other than gaining converts. Atheists who want/need to talk about religion and/or freedom from it are comparatively few these days - the debate has long-since cooled down, so there are fewer people who have any reason for seeking this place out, joining it and contributing to the discussions we do have.

To put it this way, I doubt too many people will go looking for an atheist community in order to engage with me on the subject of abortion rights, even though that debate is both hot and volatile.

To sum it all up, I don't think it's a diversity issue when it comes to membership or the opinion thereof. Yes, "we" broadly agree on the god question. Beyond that though... We have people of different political backgrounds, nationalities, interests and hobbies, levels of education, social statuses, ages, etc. It's plenty diverse, even on a superficial level.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Asmodean

Quote from: jumbojak on August 16, 2022, 11:03:50 PMThat's a great way of putting it. Seems like I may have time for now but it may not be long. This has been a very confusing few months. But, with housing costs through the roof I wouldn't be able to make a rent payment, and live. Not without a second full time job and then I couldn't train which is simply unacceptable.
I know what you mean, if to a lesser degree. Over here, the electricity prices went up a few hundred percent "over night" and stayed there, thank Putin, followed by housing prices following the sky-rocketing inflation... Expensive is beginning to be too mild a term.

Last year, I was considering buying an apartment or maybe even a small house in them cheaper suburbs sometime next year or the year after. Now though... Can't afford the loan - not on a single salary. I guess I could invest all I have and take out a smaller loan, but then I would have no cushion at all for when the mortgage rate goes up again (and again and again) or when the damned car needs new cogs and sprockets and... Getting too old to live off instant noodles just to be able to say that I'm a home owner.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Magdalena

Quote from: Asmodean on August 17, 2022, 08:37:49 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on August 16, 2022, 05:09:24 PMI can see why Trump said he wanted more Norwegians to come live in the US instead of Haitians.
That's as may be, but the underlying question is valid. Is "Diversity is strength" a statement of faith? My argument here is that it is, the way it is being used in discourse today.

Far too many people to my liking (for what it's worth) shy away from even considering potential reasons why it must or must not be. It's... "Repeat it until you believe it." Yeah... No... Way too sceptical for that.

And even when you do get some generic politician "answer," it almost invariably tends to be limited to ethnic diversity. Yes, immigration can be a solution to certain problems, such a low birth rates and ageing population. Ethnic diversity as a by-product of immigration, however... Neither here nor there, if you ask me. Someone's skin tone in itself contributes nothing to the society one way or the other.

QuoteI'm just curious as to what percentage of the Norwegian population your opinion represents.
One. As in, one dude.

Still, seeing how I have not actually brought anything controversial to the table, beyond most heretically questioning the orthodoxy, I think a lot of people would broadly consider my questions valid.

If I had to estimate, I'd say that around 5% would just call me racist and be done with it - even though I was not the one to bring race to the table. Another 10% would softly side with the 5 and deem the question "heretical." The rest... either don't care one way or another, or would try to answer it as they see it. There is no one answer to it - what some view as strength, others might view as something else, so you'd get pretty much as many opinions as people.

As long as the conflicting variables are accounted for, I'm happy regardless of conclusion.


Quote"I mean...If you have to ask..."::)
Of course, you do. Well, if you are a sceptically-minded sort of person. What's the alternative? Just believe, obey and be silent?

Quote—Without it, you get exactly what the Happy Atheist Forum is right now. Look at your members. But I'm sure that's exactly how the forum's administrator wants it.

I believe stubbornness on my part is the reason why I'm the only Latina in this homogeneous club. My opinions or ideas have brought nothing new or of value to the table.
How do you know though? That you are the only Latina, that is? Personally, I know the ethnicity of only a couple of members here. You, because you told me. Tank, because... Prolly because I saw his picture somewhere. One or two others.

That said, this forum is a very "niche" bubble, and that niche is not an ethnic one. I frequent a couple of other forums and Discord servers, occupying other niches, and what I see is that if whatever niche it occupies is hot, the place gets loads of traffic. When it cools down, so does the activity. Happened on gaming sites, political servers... "Everywhere."

Our target audience here is mostly atheists or theists who want to engage with atheists for purposes other than gaining converts. Atheists who want/need to talk about religion and/or freedom from it are comparatively few these days - the debate has long-since cooled down, so there are fewer people who have any reason for seeking this place out, joining it and contributing to the discussions we do have.

To put it this way, I doubt too many people will go looking for an atheist community in order to engage with me on the subject of abortion rights, even though that debate is both hot and volatile.

To sum it all up, I don't think it's a diversity issue when it comes to membership or the opinion thereof. Yes, "we" broadly agree on the god question. Beyond that though... We have people of different political backgrounds, nationalities, interests and hobbies, levels of education, social statuses, ages, etc. It's plenty diverse, even on a superficial level.

Asmo es como un niño que no encuentra la luna en las aguas tranquilas.

"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant

billy rubin

i think one of the fundamental strengths of diversity in ones social environment is that it breeds tolerance and an understanding that sometimes issues with superficially obvious solutions are not quite so obvious if one learns more about other points of view.

this works racially, economically, ethnically, and in most areas that ican t6hink of. homogeneous communities work well within their narrow confines, but less so when challenged to work outside their box.

japan is a good example. highly unified, racially and ethnically insular. famous for oppression of others. the nordics are very different, but that may be changing as more diversity appears and assimilation becomes less dominant than accomodation.


"I cannot understand the popularity of that kind of music, which is based on repetition. In a civilized society, things don't need to be said more than three times."

Asmodean

#16415
There is no moon to be found there, if I have puzzled out the sentence and its meaning correctly.

The best you can hope for, is a reflection of the moon, predicated on more than just the tranquillity of water. It also requires a certain time of day and type of cloud cover, not to mention certain purity of water. A proper algae infestation, for example, can make it not reflect that well.

Pedantry aside, I assume that's a saying. I think I may have heard some variation of it, but can't quite contextualise it. In any case, here's a different saying; selv en Asmo kan sitere Skriften etter sitt behov.

So, it is indeed true: I cannot find something not there to be found.

Quote from: billy rubin on August 18, 2022, 03:51:50 AMi think one of the fundamental strengths of diversity in ones social environment is that it breeds tolerance and an understanding that sometimes issues with superficially obvious solutions are not quite so obvious if one learns more about other points of view.
I agree. That is a strength, which is in fact in line with the original quote. Here is the rub though; how does it balance against its counterparts, such as class struggle, racial tensions and inequality? Yes, you can find good aspects to diversity without looking too hard. However, without accounting for the rest, how is that different from invoking the ultimate goodness of God? Has a torture dungeon. Flooded the whole planet. Sent his kid in to be executed. Created mosquitos. Never picks up the damned phone. But hey, if you please him, you'll have infinite cookies when you die, so how can you say he's not good?

For me personally, diversity is a means to an end. I like moving ever up and forward in certain facets of life, knowledge and so forth. I find it interesting and would probably find a much more stagnant, homogenous world kind-of boring. That, however, is a statement of preference, not fact. So, I am willing to live with the by-products of that diversity, which furthers that goal. I think the price is worth paying. This is again not a factual statement, but a political one - you would not be wrong to say "No, I don't think it's worth it." This says nothing about it being a good thing (Or a strength or whatever term one might use one way or the other)

So, to bastardise the quote from the original reply, is it time for parents to teach young people early on that in God, there is beauty, and there is strength? Maybe. What they teach their own kids is their concern. However, I would advocate mentioning that there is more to the story than strength and beauty.

Quotethis works racially, economically, ethnically, and in most areas that ican t6hink of. homogeneous communities work well within their narrow confines, but less so when challenged to work outside their box.

japan is a good example. highly unified, racially and ethnically insular. famous for oppression of others. the nordics are very different, but that may be changing as more diversity appears and assimilation becomes less dominant than accomodation.

I have no bone to pick with this, which I have not done a few lines up, beyond pointing out that the Nordics are indeed different. Sweden is not Norway is not Denmark is not Iceland is (especially) not Finland, if you wish to include it. Similar in many respects, perhaps, but we are different peoples.

I do assume that you and most people here, in fact, realise that - and that it doesn't matter. However, I have been in a discussion or two where people have tried to justify the concept of "huwhite culture" to me using precisely my local geopolitical cluster. It's not a monolith. There is Norwegian culture and Swedish culture and so forth. "Nordic" culture is, in this sense, the similarities between the individual ones, which are less than the whole of an individual culture - and we share even less with equally huwhite Finns, Poles, Russians or Estonians. It doesn't relate to the current discussion though - I just saw my chance to be peevish.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

billy rubin

i use "nordic" to refer to usual groups but also to the latvian lithuanian and estonian cultures on the bsltic. the mainstream nordics have interesting similarities and differences, but hold similarities to be stronger. thats why "nordics" used to have their iwn exits through immigration  in airpirts and could skip the lines  maybe still do, post 9/21?

evdn within a culture there are the usual subgroupz. in swefen thrres dalarna versus gotland, for example


"I cannot understand the popularity of that kind of music, which is based on repetition. In a civilized society, things don't need to be said more than three times."

Asmodean

I think we are far closer, culturally speaking, to the Germans and the Dutch than we are to the Lithuanians or the Finns, and I'm not just talking language groups here.

EDIT: I was going to ask what 9/21 was, but puzzled it out.

We have our own exits at the airports for domestic flights only.* For international flights - we exit through customs, like everyone else. It's no different from the vast majority of countries I've ever flown to or in. If some other nation has designated exits for people traveling on a "Nordic" passport, I'd say it probably is due to some treaty or other between said nation and that of the passport holder. Even if it's not though, it doesn't point to cultural similarities, beyond possibly being perceived as having different trustworthiness than everyone else (Otherwise, why the need for different processing?)

*We can fly to places like Sweden and Denmark from basically domestic gates (As in, no passport check - upon landing, we still go through "Arrivals International") We cannot do the same with the Baltics, though the Schengen rules do apply and we can technically travel without passport. (The mode and provider of travel - here, the airlines - may demand an ID document approved by both the nation of departure and that of the destination. Outside Finland, Sweden and Denmark, for us, that's pretty much either a national ID card for Schengen or a passport for "everywhere")
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

billy rubin

maybe so

the last estonian i met was named valdar janussen, sp perhaps my experience is not typical

i have been under the impression that the coastal baltic was pretty much a viking melting pot

still, even viking ireland is irish and not viking


"I cannot understand the popularity of that kind of music, which is based on repetition. In a civilized society, things don't need to be said more than three times."

Asmodean

Iiiin a way. Estonians are closer to Finns, and perhaps even Russians, than they are to Norwegians or Swedes. I think Estonians and Finns can even understand each other to a similar sort of degree as Norwegians and, if not Swedes, Danes.

I suppose if you want to get closest to the Viking era, then Iceland is probably the better place for it. And yeah, we do share a tradition or two, but there are also noticeable differences in our ways of being, of conducting ourselves with others, how much we trust authority, each other and the outside world, etc.

So if the Viking era is a branch, we are all distinct twigs. I suppose you can compare it with the "Anglosphere," only the Viking era is even further removed than, say, the European settlement of Australia, the Americas or South Africa. 
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

billy rubin

ive never been to iceland.

i am told it used to be covered in birch forests, and the current endless meadows are avresult of viking deforestation.


"I cannot understand the popularity of that kind of music, which is based on repetition. In a civilized society, things don't need to be said more than three times."

Magdalena

Quote from: Asmodean on August 18, 2022, 08:10:43 AMThere is no moon to be found there, if I have puzzled out the sentence and its meaning correctly.

The best you can hope for, is a reflection of the moon, predicated on more than just the tranquillity of water. It also requires a certain time of day and type of cloud cover, not to mention certain purity of water. A proper algae infestation, for example, can make it not reflect that well.

Pedantry aside, I assume that's a saying. I think I may have heard some variation of it, but can't quite contextualise it. In any case, here's a different saying; selv en Asmo kan sitere Skriften etter sitt behov.

So, it is indeed true: I cannot find something not there to be found.



"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant

billy rubin

#16422


"I cannot understand the popularity of that kind of music, which is based on repetition. In a civilized society, things don't need to be said more than three times."

Asmodean

Quote from: billy rubin on August 18, 2022, 03:36:28 PMive never been to iceland.

i am told it used to be covered in birch forests, and the current endless meadows are avresult of viking deforestation.
Heh... Perhaps - we are talking a long-ass time, and I have read somewhere that the continental Europe was deforested sometime in or around the Middle Ages.

They used to do stuff like build ships out of wood, so there may be something to it. I doubt Iceland was covered in forest as such though - more suspect that it had some smaller forests here and there, which were cut down for various construction, heating and other such needs.

Iceland as it is today is a pretty cool place though. They have lava and hot springs and eat them weird sharks and sheep testicles and have the most appalling hard liquor (Though I'm far from a connoisseur of such things) Also, you can rent one of them cars with oversized tyres and wheel around, look at nature... Yeah. A fine destination. Still, if you prefer bustling civilization... That, Iceland has not. Even the capital is a relatively small city. Oh, it does have "everything," but it's... Smaller.

Quote from: billy rubin on August 18, 2022, 05:24:23 PMnot just los ninos

https://www.thoughtco.com/poet-li-po-2725342
Yeah, apparently scholars believe that one drank himself to death. :lol: How very fascinating that the legend attributes his death to a drunken suicide, while "the scholars" do to suicide by drink - OR, death by longevity.

Sounds like a interesting character. I may want to research further.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

billy rubin

https://www.skogur.is/en/forestry/forestry-in-a-treeless-land/history-of-forests-in-iceland


At the time of human settlement almost 1150 years ago, birch forest and woodland covered 25-40% of Iceland's land area. The relatively tall (to 15 m) birch forests of sheltered valleys graded to birch and willow scrub toward the coast, on exposed sites and in wetland areas and to willow tundra at high elevations.

As in agrarian societies everywhere, the settlers began by cutting down the forests to create fields and grazing land. Sheep were important as a source of wool from the outset, but by about 1300 they had become a staple source of food for Icelanders as well. At the same time, the Catholic Church (also the political power at the time) started obtaining woodland remnants, a clear indication that they had become valuable resources because of their increasing rarity. Sheep grazing prevented regeneration of the birchwoods after cutting and the area of woodland continued to decline. A cooling climate (the little ice age) is sometimes cited as a possible cause for woodland decline as are volcanic eruptions and other types of disturbance, but on closer inspection they can not explain the overall deforestation that took place. Cooling temperatures might have lowered tree line elevation, but they do not explain deforestation of the lowlands, where temperatures have been sufficient for birchwoods throughout historical times. Natural disturbance is sporadic and limited in area and thus cannot account for the permanent destruction of 95% of the original forest cover. In Iceland as elsewhere, regeneration failure due to livestock grazing is the principal cause of deforestation.

....

not long ago


"I cannot understand the popularity of that kind of music, which is based on repetition. In a civilized society, things don't need to be said more than three times."