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Started by Steve Reason, August 25, 2007, 08:15:06 PM

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billy rubin

thered quite a bit of truth in that, unforyunately


"I cannot understand the popularity of that kind of music, which is based on repetition. In a civilized society, things don't need to be said more than three times."

Magdalena

Quote from: Tom62 on August 12, 2022, 08:34:02 PMDiversity is okay as long as it doesn't mean to exclude others. It also doesn't mean that you should create parallel societies, all with their own rules.
I had never heard of this term before, parallel societies, I had to google it. I didn't know this had a name, but I have seen this here. I said to someone, "Some people complain about some immigrants refusing to integrate into this society, why do you think this is?" He said, "Because we don't fucking feel like it."
 :yeahok: 

Quote from: Tom62 on August 12, 2022, 08:34:02 PMIn some universities it has now become quite common to separate people by race, gender, etc. That is for me the exact opposite of diversity, namely segregation.
I think you meant to say, integration, not diversity. The opposite of integration is segregation.

There is diversity but instead of uniting they're dividing or segregating.

Why would they do that?

Quote from: Tom62 on August 12, 2022, 08:34:02 PMWhat also doesn't seem popular anymore is the diversity of ideas. More often than not, people who have different ideas are not really welcome.     
Nowadays it's hard to tell if the idea is the one that's not welcomed or the person.
:notsure:

Different ideas challenge us to "check ourselves". It's difficult to even contemplate the idea that we could be wrong.

I think I won't get to see a unified world, we are very far from it...like billy rubin said, "unfortunately." :-\

"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant

billy rubin

"unfortuneatel;"y is the correct word.

i grew up in a world wher nobody looked like me. nobody had a culture like i had come from, nobody had a future that i was headed towards. i was always a stranger in a strange land, and it was normal to me.

as a result of that, i never expectd anybody to share the life experiences i had, and i never expected anybody t be headed towards the cultural future that i was headed towards.

everybody i met was a new experience, without preconceptions or expectations. everybody i knew was someone who i interacted with based on whatever they brought to that daym, that time.

i lived and socialized among cantonese, sikhs, dravidians, tamils, malays, indonesians, europeans, hndus, christians, muslims, pagans, you name it.

i was always fscinated to learn what this diversity of humaniuty would bring me. and it taught me that people were different, and that there was no reason to expect anyone to share my own views as to what was normative,.

\dunno whether thats useful in todays society, but it certainly enabled me to grow at my own time and place..

it taught me tolerance. not acceptance of evil, but recognition that humanity was not a single flow, but rather a braided stream of living. not always pretty, not always kind, but always worth searching for commonality.


"I cannot understand the popularity of that kind of music, which is based on repetition. In a civilized society, things don't need to be said more than three times."

Magdalena

Quote from: billy rubin on August 13, 2022, 04:51:36 AM"unfortuneatel;"y is the correct word.

i grew up in a world wher nobody looked like me. nobody had a culture like i had come from, nobody had a future that i was headed towards. i was always a stranger in a strange land, and it was normal to me.

as a result of that, i never expectd anybody to share the life experiences i had, and i never expected anybody t be headed towards the cultural future that i was headed towards.

everybody i met was a new experience, without preconceptions or expectations. everybody i knew was someone who i interacted with based on whatever they brought to that daym, that time.

i lived and socialized among cantonese, sikhs, dravidians, tamils, malays, indonesians, europeans, hndus, christians, muslims, pagans, you name it.

i was always fscinated to learn what this diversity of humaniuty would bring me. and it taught me that people were different, and that there was no reason to expect anyone to share my own views as to what was normative,.

\dunno whether thats useful in todays society, but it certainly enabled me to grow at my own time and place..

it taught me tolerance. not acceptance of evil, but recognition that humanity was not a single flow, but rather a braided stream of living. not always pretty, not always kind, but always worth searching for commonality.

Wow! Impressive.
Quotei lived and socialized among cantonese, sikhs, dravidians, tamils, malays, indonesians, europeans, hndus, christians, muslims, pagans, you name it.

We are different, but we also share similarities, more with some than with others.  I too have always been fascinated with the diversity of humanity.

"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant

Tank

Quote from: billy rubin on August 13, 2022, 04:51:36 AM"unfortuneatel;"y is the correct word.

i grew up in a world wher nobody looked like me. nobody had a culture like i had come from, nobody had a future that i was headed towards. i was always a stranger in a strange land, and it was normal to me.

as a result of that, i never expectd anybody to share the life experiences i had, and i never expected anybody t be headed towards the cultural future that i was headed towards.

everybody i met was a new experience, without preconceptions or expectations. everybody i knew was someone who i interacted with based on whatever they brought to that daym, that time.

i lived and socialized among cantonese, sikhs, dravidians, tamils, malays, indonesians, europeans, hndus, christians, muslims, pagans, you name it.

i was always fscinated to learn what this diversity of humaniuty would bring me. and it taught me that people were different, and that there was no reason to expect anyone to share my own views as to what was normative,.

\dunno whether thats useful in todays society, but it certainly enabled me to grow at my own time and place..

it taught me tolerance. not acceptance of evil, but recognition that humanity was not a single flow, but rather a braided stream of living. not always pretty, not always kind, but always worth searching for commonality.

It's a shame we don't all get to grow up with that sort of experience.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Asmodean

#16400
Found the thread I meant to resume, finally!

...I think. Found one of them, at least. :headscratch:

Quote from: Magdalena on August 12, 2022, 05:30:32 PM:superman:
Good question.

I would say, Asmojito, we live in a diverse world.
You and your dad have beautiful gray skin, that's an example of diversity because not everyone in the world has gray skin.
:asmo:  :asmo:

Look around you, the world has a wide variety of plants, animals, people, languages, skin color, genders, ideas, opinions, perspectives, skills, talents, etc. We benefit from this because diversity triggers cognitive thinking.
How? That *point* dude is Korean, and I neither care nor see why I should. The chef at my favourite fast food joint doesn't really speak Norwegian, and I most certainly don't speak his language. It's an inconvenience - nothing more.

I can certainly see how diversity of opinion would cause an intellectually-honest person to think and evaluate their own and others' ideas, but gender, skin colour and language? How?

QuoteOne day, you will disagree with someone whose background is different from yours, and if you listen, it helps you reflect on your assumptions and helps you to look at the world from a fresh and new perspective.
Indeed. Is diversity of opinion, which I value highly, by the way, a strength though? Remember, it also encompasses things like Communism, the Ku Klux Klan, the Jewish conspiracy, critical race theory and a whole mess of other bad ideas - or just academic ideas that translate to practice with disastrous results.

Personally, I think it is a net gain, but that is very much a matter of perspective. For instance, these days, there are interests - powerful ones, at that - who do their best to homogenise thought and opinion in various questions. Some do it for what they perceive to be "the greater good." They certainly do not see diversity of opinion as a strength - be they totalitarian rulers, killing their way through the opposition, or keyboard warriors on Twitter, trying to "cancel" any-one they find disagreeable.

QuoteI know it can be challenging, especially if you haven't been exposed  to a diverse environment, it can lead to conflicts and if you've only been around people with the same background as yours or who hold the same opinions, they can't teach you the importance of
inclusion and acceptance.
So why is inclusion and acceptance important?

QuoteOne step at a time, my little Asmojito, don't look at the world as a melting pot where everyone changes and becomes like you, instead, look at it as a salad bowl where everyone should be able to co-exist and retain their originality.

 :grouphug:
The world is not a melting pot - it is a camo suit, where each pocket of colour itself has a camo pattern to one degree or another. Those which are melting pots tend to have few jarring contrasts and be generally more... Gray. There is value in that, depending on your preferences.

All in all, the little Asmojito is grumpily of the opinion that His question went largely unanswered.

For what reason(s) is diversity a strength? Let's grant that the world is diverse - is it somehow strong because of diversity, or may it perhaps lead to its destruction one day? Maybe both?

To tie it in with the theme of what I was referring to, the answer that assumes and/or asserts its own conclusion is how faith works. "Diversity is strength." Now let us try and find out why. "Because diversity is strength." Now let us try to find out why. Etc.

EDIT: I guess I should provide some scaffolding to this.

Assuming that diversity is strength, and strength is desirable, therefore diversity is desirable; (This is me falsifying the claim, by the way)

The ancient Greeks, Romans and the Norse, among others, had diverse pantheons of gods. All swallowed up - be it by sword or treaty - by the comparatively homogenous God of Abraham. This speaks to the monotheistic religions gaining an upper hand on the polytheistic ones despite (or maybe even because of) their diversity.

The United States has race riots. Japan does not. This speaks to a homogenous society being more stable than a diverse one. Is volatility a pillar of strength?

India has a great diversity of... Just about everything, actually. Why is it less stable then, as a nation, than comparatively homogenous Norway? (We can go by fragile state index if delving in-depth)
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

jumbojak

It looks like I'll be moving into a tent at the end of the month.

"Amazing what chimney sweeping can teach us, no? Keep your fire hot and
your flue clean."  - Ecurb Noselrub

"I'd be incensed by your impudence were I not so impressed by your memory." - Siz

Tank

Quote from: jumbojak on August 16, 2022, 10:33:15 AMIt looks like I'll be moving into a tent at the end of the month.

Oh Shit! Not out of choice I assume?
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Asmodean

A tent? If I may, a tent as in, "a vacation somewhere with mosquitos," or "the house burned down and the insurance won't pay?"
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

billy rubin

is this new job actually a better job?


"I cannot understand the popularity of that kind of music, which is based on repetition. In a civilized society, things don't need to be said more than three times."

Magdalena

Quote from: Asmodean on August 16, 2022, 09:35:24 AMFound the thread I meant to resume, finally!

...I think. Found one of them, at least. :headscratch:

Quote from: Magdalena on August 12, 2022, 05:30:32 PM:superman:
Good question.

I would say, Asmojito, we live in a diverse world.
You and your dad have beautiful gray skin, that's an example of diversity because not everyone in the world has gray skin.
:asmo:  :asmo:

Look around you, the world has a wide variety of plants, animals, people, languages, skin color, genders, ideas, opinions, perspectives, skills, talents, etc. We benefit from this because diversity triggers cognitive thinking.
How? That *point* dude is Korean, and I neither care nor see why I should. The chef at my favourite fast food joint doesn't really speak Norwegian, and I most certainly don't speak his language. It's an inconvenience - nothing more.

I can certainly see how diversity of opinion would cause an intellectually-honest person to think and evaluate their own and others' ideas, but gender, skin colour and language? How?

QuoteOne day, you will disagree with someone whose background is different from yours, and if you listen, it helps you reflect on your assumptions and helps you to look at the world from a fresh and new perspective.
Indeed. Is diversity of opinion, which I value highly, by the way, a strength though? Remember, it also encompasses things like Communism, the Ku Klux Klan, the Jewish conspiracy, critical race theory and a whole mess of other bad ideas - or just academic ideas that translate to practice with disastrous results.

Personally, I think it is a net gain, but that is very much a matter of perspective. For instance, these days, there are interests - powerful ones, at that - who do their best to homogenise thought and opinion in various questions. Some do it for what they perceive to be "the greater good." They certainly do not see diversity of opinion as a strength - be they totalitarian rulers, killing their way through the opposition, or keyboard warriors on Twitter, trying to "cancel" any-one they find disagreeable.

QuoteI know it can be challenging, especially if you haven't been exposed  to a diverse environment, it can lead to conflicts and if you've only been around people with the same background as yours or who hold the same opinions, they can't teach you the importance of
inclusion and acceptance.
So why is inclusion and acceptance important?

QuoteOne step at a time, my little Asmojito, don't look at the world as a melting pot where everyone changes and becomes like you, instead, look at it as a salad bowl where everyone should be able to co-exist and retain their originality.

 :grouphug:
The world is not a melting pot - it is a camo suit, where each pocket of colour itself has a camo pattern to one degree or another. Those which are melting pots tend to have few jarring contrasts and be generally more... Gray. There is value in that, depending on your preferences.

All in all, the little Asmojito is grumpily of the opinion that His question went largely unanswered.

For what reason(s) is diversity a strength? Let's grant that the world is diverse - is it somehow strong because of diversity, or may it perhaps lead to its destruction one day? Maybe both?

To tie it in with the theme of what I was referring to, the answer that assumes and/or asserts its own conclusion is how faith works. "Diversity is strength." Now let us try and find out why. "Because diversity is strength." Now let us try to find out why. Etc.

EDIT: I guess I should provide some scaffolding to this.

Assuming that diversity is strength, and strength is desirable, therefore diversity is desirable; (This is me falsifying the claim, by the way)

The ancient Greeks, Romans and the Norse, among others, had diverse pantheons of gods. All swallowed up - be it by sword or treaty - by the comparatively homogenous God of Abraham. This speaks to the monotheistic religions gaining an upper hand on the polytheistic ones despite (or maybe even because of) their diversity.

The United States has race riots. Japan does not. This speaks to a homogenous society being more stable than a diverse one. Is volatility a pillar of strength?

India has a great diversity of... Just about everything, actually. Why is it less stable then, as a nation, than comparatively homogenous Norway? (We can go by fragile state index if delving in-depth)


I can see why Trump said he wanted more Norwegians to come live in the US instead of Haitians.

I'm just curious as to what percentage of the Norwegian population your opinion represents.


QuoteAll in all, the little Asmojito is grumpily of the opinion that His question went largely unanswered.
—Or, he didn't hear what he's used to hearing at home, so, it doesn't make any sense.
Yet.

I told my little boy, Someone wants to know: "So why are diversity, inclusion, and acceptance important?"
He said:
"I mean...If you have to ask..."::)


—Without it, you get exactly what the Happy Atheist Forum is right now. Look at your members. But I'm sure that's exactly how the forum's administrator wants it.

I believe stubbornness on my part is the reason why I'm the only Latina in this homogeneous club. My opinions or ideas have brought nothing new or of value to the table.

I get it.
I actually got it a long time ago.
But that can change.



"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant

Ecurb Noselrub

Quote from: Magdalena on August 16, 2022, 05:09:24 PM—Without it, you get exactly what the Happy Atheist Forum is right now. Look at your members. But I'm sure that's exactly how the forum's administrator wants it.

I believe stubbornness on my part is the reason why I'm the only Latina in this homogeneous club. My opinions or ideas have brought nothing new or of value to the table.

I get it.
I actually got it a long time ago.
But that can change.


Even though I am a white male, I'm also a bit of an odd duck here, being one of "them", you know. For me it wasn't stubbornness as much as it was learning to see things from another perspective. Atheism was pretty much foreign to my world, so being here and on the old Sam Harris forum taught me a lot. It's like going to school in a foreign country.

jumbojak

Quote from: Asmodean on August 16, 2022, 01:25:54 PMA tent? If I may, a tent as in, "a vacation somewhere with mosquitos," or "the house burned down and the insurance won't pay?"

That's a great way of putting it. Seems like I may have time for now but it may not be long. This has been a very confusing few months. But, with housing costs through the roof I wouldn't be able to make a rent payment, and live. Not without a second full time job and then I couldn't train which is simply unacceptable.

"Amazing what chimney sweeping can teach us, no? Keep your fire hot and
your flue clean."  - Ecurb Noselrub

"I'd be incensed by your impudence were I not so impressed by your memory." - Siz

Icarus

Mags, your ideas have certainly brought something of value to the table.  It cannot be a flavorful salad unless we include several kinds of ingredient.

hermes2015

Quote from: jumbojak on August 16, 2022, 11:03:50 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on August 16, 2022, 01:25:54 PMA tent? If I may, a tent as in, "a vacation somewhere with mosquitos," or "the house burned down and the insurance won't pay?"

That's a great way of putting it. Seems like I may have time for now but it may not be long. This has been a very confusing few months. But, with housing costs through the roof I wouldn't be able to make a rent payment, and live. Not without a second full time job and then I couldn't train which is simply unacceptable.

I hope things work out well for you. Keep us up to date with developments.
"Eventually everything connects - people, ideas, objects. The quality of the connections is the key to quality per se."
― Charles Eames