Asmo's Libya rant

[fester30]

My 2cts. Are we betting on the right guys? I remember that in the 80's, we supported the Muhadjedin in Afghanistan.  They turned out to be not the kind of people, you'd like to have as your neighbours. So, it might well be, that we are now supporting the next generation of Osama Bin Ladens in Libya.

We have sort of a mixed track record when it comes to regime change.  Sure, there are examples like Castro and the Taliban where we supported a person or people who wound up not liking us.  However, there are also examples like Panama, where the country is both better off and kinder to us after we arrested Noriega.  Then there are the Baltics, where we got rid of Milosevic, and the Baltics are certainly more peaceful now, but the underlying problems haven't gone away permanently, so perhaps not much net change.

[terranus]

...So the UN finally got somewhere, authorizing "all the means necessary" to "prevent further civilian casualties".

And yet...

As far as I understand, the Libyan rebels took up arms against their legitimate (however dislikeable) and internationally recognised government, but the countries currently leading the operation have sided with the named rebels, officially or otherwise, and not with that legitimate government. Is that how the UN is supposed to be used? To bring democracy to the world at the point of a cruise missile, however indirectly the intent is worded?

If you are the UN, you dislike the evil dictator and therefor can not do the lawfully right thing and support him in ending the rebellion, and if you STILL mean to go in with military force, is it not better to delegate the military part to a party which doesn't give a rat's ass about who takes control as long as civilian casualties are kept at minimum?

I have no love for crazy dicators, but neutrality should be... Neutral.

 

Oh yeah?

"Our mission is not to support any opposition forces." -U.S. General Carter Ham, Commander of Africa Command

Here's the LINK.

EDIT:

And here's another LINK.

[Asmodean]

Oh yeah?

Actually, no, I love crazy dictators  

Links which don't exactly speak louder than actions

Oh yeah?

[Asmodean]

My 2cts. Are we betting on the right guys? I remember that in the 80's, we supported the Muhadjedin in Afghanistan.  They turned out to be not the kind of people, you'd like to have as your neighbours. So, it might well be, that we are now supporting the next generation of Osama Bin Ladens in Libya.

Of course not!

"We", and by that I mean our glorious governments, are betting on democracy in places where it can not survive long because there is ALWAYS an asshole with a cruise missile to scare people into submission. Here is a simplified explanation of the pattern:

Good dictator with western support > Genocide > Evil dictator without Western support > Riot > Glorious Western military sent by their idiot governments > No more evil dictator > Democracy > People vote for secular-looking islamists who wipe the secularism off their faces nearly the same minute they get the power > If "we" are lucky, some lunatic comes along, gets military on their side and saves the country and the people and gets all the chicks > Repeat until done...

My point is, as it always was, that if they want to make a terrible mess of their countries, LET THEM. Up until today, us westerners have ever only made shit worse.

[Tank]

My 2cts. Are we betting on the right guys? I remember that in the 80's, we supported the Muhadjedin in Afghanistan.  They turned out to be not the kind of people, you'd like to have as your neighbours. So, it might well be, that we are now supporting the next generation of Osama Bin Ladens in Libya.

My enemies, enemy is my friend, until our mutual enemy is defeated at which point all bets are off! This is very much like the allied powers during WWII, the alliance against the Nazis's was the lesser of two evils. Politics is the art of pragmatics!

[The Magic Pudding]

Up until today, us westerners have ever only made shit worse.

The west often makes things worse, but not always.
Pressure was applied to Indonesia not to take a heavy hand with East Timor, and they grudgingly allowed them independence, the UN has been involved and I think the East Timorese are pleased with how things have turned out.  Indonesia is an example of a Muslim country which has moved past dictators to democracy, not thanks to any western help though.  The fact the world is watching is probably a major factor in dictators bowing out peacefully with their billions, and not resorting to slaughter.

The Muhadjedin in Afghanistan don't look good for western intervention, but wasn't Afghanistan a factor in the demise of the USSR?  If it contributed to the end of the cold war that is something of a plus.
The occupation of Japan turned out OK I think.
Commentary on the Regional Assistance Mission to Solomon Islands is mostly positive.
I don't know how keen Europe is on accepting Libyans escaping Gadaffi's reprisals, some action to avoid this is worth considering.
The Curds in Iraq I think are happy to have some autonomy and no longer being the subject of Iraqi target practice.

[Asmodean]

The west often makes things worse, but not always.

In the long run..? In Africa and Middle East..?

Pressure was applied to Indonesia not to take a heavy hand with East Timor, and they grudgingly allowed them independence, the UN has been involved and I think the East Timorese are pleased with how things have turned out.

Indonesia is interesting, but, as we see below,

Indonesia is an example of a Muslim country which has moved past dictators to democracy, not thanks to any western help though.

The fact the world is watching is probably a major factor in dictators bowing out peacefully with their billions, and not resorting to slaughter.

On the other hand, when the world freezes them billions and directs rockets at the named dictator... Well, if I was one, I'd go out in flames. Something to remember with dread for decades to come... But that may be just me... And Ghadaffi... And that other guy... And those three...  

The Muhadjedin in Afghanistan don't look good for western intervention, but wasn't Afghanistan a factor in the demise of the USSR?  If it contributed to the end of the cold war that is something of a plus.

A factor..? Yes. An important one..? I wouldn't say so, really.

That said, is an average Russian better off now with their pseudo-democracy? I wouldn't say that either. And where was the UN when Russia bombed the crap out of Chechnya? Were those people not more entitled to military support than the Libyan rebels?

The occupation of Japan turned out OK I think.

And how would Japan of today be worse if the country was not invaded?

Commentary on the Regional Assistance Mission to Solomon Islands is mostly positive.

Hm... True enough.

I don't know how keen Europe is on accepting Libyans escaping Gadaffi's reprisals, some action to avoid this is worth considering.
The Curds in Iraq I think are happy to have some autonomy and no longer being the subject of Iraqi target practice.

How long will it last? You put people who don't want to co-exist together and the thing WILL explode, as history shows. Let us remember while we are at it that Libya is actually a UN creation... As is Israel for that matter, and that one is, in my private personal opinion, one of the most morally bankrupt states out there.

[Sophus]

My 2cts. Are we betting on the right guys? I remember that in the 80's, we supported the Muhadjedin in Afghanistan.  They turned out to be not the kind of people, you'd like to have as your neighbours. So, it might well be, that we are now supporting the next generation of Osama Bin Ladens in Libya.

I'm not sure there are "right guys" to support.

[wildfire_emissary]

I think the UN must respect the sovereignty of Libya, in accordance to the time-honored principle par in parem non habet imperium.
This brings to mind SOAD's Prison Song line:
[spoiler:1s9j0a2a]"Now you police the globe."[/spoiler:1s9j0a2a]

[KebertX]

Oh, I like my democratic government too, but I wouldn't presume to tell another souvereign state how to govern itself or how to deal with armed rebels within its bloody borders. And I sure as hell would not side with those rebels - directly or otherwise. Protecting non-combatants is well and good - the rest is an internal affair.

That's how I see it.

No more respect for the UN here. None at all.  :bananacolor:

[xSilverPhinx]

Excuse them for realizing that they don't need to obey a psychopathic dictator. They deserve to exert their power to govern their own lives. I see that as a human right. So I would side with those rebels. They have rights, and I am damn proud of them for acting like it. Violence can be used to achieve an ultimate good.

Agreed. When whoever represents the government feels they can violate a social contract by imposing themselves and their rule on others, then it's time for people to fight, even if that means taking up arms. Ghadaffi doesn't want to acknowledge that he's overstayed his welcome...I hope things don't turn out well for him.

[Asmodean]

Excuse them for realizing that they don't need to obey a psychopathic dictator. They deserve to exert their power to govern their own lives. I see that as a human right. So I would side with those rebels. They have rights, and I am damn proud of them for acting like it. Violence can be used to achieve an ultimate good.

I've really been loving the Arab Spring. DOWN WITH QADDAFI!

Let internal affairs, which a rebellion is, be internal.  

[fester30]

I have conflicting viewpoints.  On one hand, I think we should continue to destroy Al Qaida until the world decides on a single spelling for Al Qaeda.  On the other hand, I think we should force the world to find a single spelling for Gaddafi until we allow anyone to intercede against Qadhafi.

[The Magic Pudding]

Let me see... I'm in opposition to the current government in my country. For that reason, I am justified in taking up arms and having Zimbabwe side with me and bomb the government forces trying to end my rebellion, yes..?

Yes if the government is killing it's people or you can offer us some cheap oil.  I don't think Norway's killing exceeds accepted spoilage and breakage levels.  But you do have oil so we may be able to arrange something.

[Asmodean]

Yes if the government is killing it's people or you can offer us some cheap oil.  I don't think Norway's killing exceeds accepted spoilage and breakage levels.  But you do have oil so we may be able to arrange something.

We do have oil. And our government is overpricing it.   Revolution is in order, yes?