A debate between my mom-n-law and I...

[Eclecticsaturn]

Hello everyone, I sent out a myspace bulliten a little while ago and the challege was this:

The Challenge:

All right everyone. This may be a fun challenge for some of you and maybe an awakening for others. My challenge to you who believe in god/s (this challenge applies to any religious faith) is to convince me LOGICLY that god/s exists.

Now I have to lay down some footnotes. I will tell you right now that the argument of "well you/they cant prove this/that so the only other option is that it was god/s" is not logic, its simply filling in the gaps with god and I don’t agree with that reasoning because its not sound and its to vague. Also just to let you know I WILL respond to your answer either to let you know that your argument is convincing or irrational. I mean not to "disrespect" anyone so if you can’t handle reasoning then don’t respond to this. Let’s have fun!

Well my mom in law responded. Im gunna post the "debate" here. Ill put her responses in italics and ill leave mine regular. Enjoy. Oh and sorry for the length and the bad spelling.


Prove to me that God doesn't exist. Try to convince me.

You can’t disprove something you cannot prove. I understand that in science you start with a logically concept or theory and then work backwards to disprove it or parts of it but in this situation we can group god in the same category as the hundreds of other gods i.e.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deities not to mention the flying spaghetti monster, the invisible pink unicorn, fairies, pixies, the louchness monster or Bigfoot. You cannot prove they do or do not exist either. So unfortunately if that was an attempt to convince me, sorry, strike one. if that was you turning the question around and actually wanting me to answer that (which seems to be the only thing that christians/cathlics are able to do) im sorry but that’s not gunna happen for the reasons I gave above. love ya

Droo,
It is serious business to deny God. No one person can convince you to believe in the living God. It is through what we call the conviction given by the Holy Spirit who lives and dwells in us (believers). "Out of the heart the mouth speaks" (look it up in bible)

It is only serious to someone who believes in what lies ahead if you deny. Yes, its true, I completly deny jesus, god and the holy spirit and according to mark 3:29 I can NEVER be forgiven for that and am now damned to hell. that’s ok because that doesnt concern me becuase I dont believe. either way, this challenge was not convience me yet on the contrary, its was given to rack other peoples brains to see if they can answer intelligntly, logiclly, and rationally. I was curious of the arguements that would arise from it. Luke 6:45 was your refferense I believe but that doesnt make sence what your insinuating. regardless, it was simply a challenge that others are responding to and trying to be logical about it. its fun..

You won't find God using logic, it takes faith, a supernatural faith.

well unfortunatly that’s what I need in order to believe so I guess im screwed. oh well. But on a side note, you dont see anything wrong with that? The fact that your god wont use logic. you have to believe in him with BLIND faith? That just doesnt sound right to me sorry.

Faith isn't based on just logic alone. You talk about blind faith-it takes more faith to believe in evolution since nothing can be proven to support this theory.

did you get my reply to this? I hope so cuz it was long one but I dont see it as replied or in my sent box. let me know..

No, I did not reply to this. I think if you want to know Truth you have to have to surrender to the fact that we cannot possibly know all there is to know. If you want to argue logic then take into consideration that we only use 2.5 % of 1% of our brain. Therefore making it impossible for one person to be all knowing. Only God is all knowing and He proves Himself to many witnesses both past and present. I hope this is helpful to you lol), which is were christmas was stolen from. There are others but I won’t go into them, you get my point. You see the stories, myths, fairytales that get passed from family to family many times get changed dramatically (a fish story) to fit a more liked or complete or even popular version. Take Disney for instance and most of there stories like Cinderella, alike in wonderland, snow white, sleeping beauty, beauty and the beast, etc... All derived from more violent, depressing, eerie versions but are now so watered down kids can watch them. So, that being said along with the many of stories and the fact that they didn’t have the type of entertainment we have today story telling was all they had. Not only that but it is evident that it was written by men of those days because of the lack knowledge they had. (I.e. they still at that point believed the earth was flat)) the dark ages eliminated many of the believers/ beliefs of other religions, mostly by death, making the christian/cathlic one the most predominate religion and belief. So if you want to criticize the "word" we can go both ways with that argument but regardless. ALL the reasons thus far and many more are why I am "having a hard time trying to wrap your brain around God as the beginning and end of all things." And for the fool comment, ya ive read that verse/s. that’s funny. Just remember this, next time you type a response on your Microsoft based computer, know that an atheist "fool", the richest man alive and VERY intelligent, bill gates, designed it. As for your morals question (which was oddly off topic and kind of just thrown in there) we’ve already talked about this on the phone and we just kept running in circles. You know were I stand on that though. k, ttyl.

(I retracted a previous statement via message)
I said that the bible claims the earth is flat (which it still does in a couple verses i.e.: job 38:13, Daniel 4:11, and Deuteronomy 28:64) but 1 verse contridicts that (go figure, contradictions in the bible) which is Isaiah 40:22. So to let you know that there is a contradiction so I won’t use that argument, even though is still kind of proves my point.

My dearest son,
you’ll find that God uses the foolish things of the world to shame the wise. Like a child who is learning to walk. He grabs anything he sees to get himself up. That's how God wants us to be with Him- to grab on and not let go of Him. Seth loves to grab our hands and pull us to what he wants. He is relentless; he doesn't give up until he gets what he wants. He trusts that we will eventually give him his ice cream or video. It's called trust, child-like faith. We don't want to lose this as adults and become hardened and jaded by the world.

Ya but the difference in the "child-like faith" is that it is just that, child-like. And child like behavior is not so much unacceptable socially, but also it doesn’t let you progress intellectually when your older. It’s ok to have a child like faith that santa is real but if you were to believe that when you’re older it would be absurd and unreasonable to believe in myths.




Then that was it. I got no responses back. Ill posts other debates later. lemme know what you guys think.

[Whitney]

I really don't understand how adults can think the whole "I know this religion is right because of a feeling in my soul" argument actually makes sense.  Don't they not realize that no matter what religion a person follows they get that same feeling?

[SteveS]

I skimmed this a little, eclecticsaturn, but I think you handled yourself well, cheers!  I'm as mystified by these non-explanations as you are - I just can't understand how people feel these are valid beliefs to have.

One thing is certain - every time I'm exposed to it, I come away detesting Psalm 14 more and more strongly.....

[rlrose328]

That conversation mirrors those I've had with my own mother... there's no getting through to them.  You did a great job of standing your ground.

[tigerlily46514]

I skimmed a little too, (paragraphs are nice, hee hee) but your logic is good.  Slight warning here, some relatives are so touchy about having their beliefs challenged(sometimes it is the first time they have ever had to logically try to explain their religion, we atheists have a slight advantage in that dept-we get argued with regularly, thus forcing us to be ready, all the practice we get!!!! ha ha)  it isn't fun at all, you can't convince them, nor can they change your mind either.    

But if your mom is bringing it up, and isn't getting all flipped out,  if it isn't damaging your relationship, go for it.  If she is getting all flipped out, honor your mom and ask her if she'd rather  just agree not to discuss it.   Anyone else, bring it on if they want, but a mom, ya know, you only get one mom.  They don't last forever, even if they believe they do.  

With my own fam, after lengthy and passionate debates when i was young, we had to agree to disagree, and we also agreed to respectfully not bring it up again.  But ya know, with a mamma, all bets are off.  She probably fears for your soul in the afterlife.  Reassure her you are living very ethically and morally and IF she is right- (humoring her, i'm with you) you'd get into heaven based on merit/ kind behavior.  If it isn't based on merit, what good is it?

Hug your mom anyway.

Love,
~jean (atheist mom)

EDIT:  OH, it's your mom-in-LAW!!!  OH, well, then, have at it!!  Debate your lil heart out!!!!!

[jcm]

Hey...wikipedia didn't list Bumba, he is my favorite! Thank god alka seltzer wasn't invented before the universe!

[Ninja Donkey]

Kudos for taking on the mom-in-law
and even more kudos to the both of you for keepng the debate light and non-threatening.  It's not easy for two viewpoints that are so drastically different to share a civilized conversation, congrats! It's refreshing to know that such a conversation can take place.

[rlrose328]

If she is getting all flipped out, honor your mom and ask her if she'd rather  just agree not to discuss it.   Anyone else, bring it on if they want, but a mom, ya know, you only get one mom.  They don't last forever, even if they believe they do.  

My mom and I have a no-religious-discussions policy, unless SHE brings it up and then, I've got free rein to state my case.  She rarely brings it up.

Unfortunately, she is getting forgetful these days and she has "forgotten" twice in the past two years that I've told her I'm an atheist.  She called me a few weeks ago after having seen my "I am an atheist" page on my personal website.  She was very upset, decided her sisters had better do her funeral since she wants a Catholic funeral and I might not be able to do it.  We had a nice, calm, long discussion and I told her that's her right, it does hurt my feelings but she needs to do what she feels most comfortable with.  <sigh>  I have no idea what she decided... heck, she's probably forgotten about it all by now.  :roll:

[Eclecticsaturn]

EDIT:  OH, it's your mom-in-LAW!!!  OH, well, then, have at it!!  Debate your lil heart out!!!!!

hahahahahaa! very nice.

Thanks for all the inputs guys. This is just one that i was able to capture in word.