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Abortion, MMCs and political incorrectness

Started by Asmodean, February 05, 2011, 09:14:24 AM

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terranus

I understand where you're coming from here Asmodean. But choosing who we want to be born and who we don't can be a slippery slope. Ever see that movie Gattaca?

I'm not saying I'm against abortion - quite on the contrary. Like I said over on another thread, I believe you and your partner should be required to pass an IQ test before you can procreate - sort of like a "procreation license" if you will. Otherwise you will be forced to have an abortion.

But I have 2 friends with relatively minor birth defects, both of which have parents who's doctors told their mothers that they would not be able to function properly and be a productive member in today's society. Both my friends have jobs, 1 is a college graduate, and the other just got married and is due to graduate in the next year. So...you never really know just how productive that unborn fetus is really going to be until a long time after he/she is born, do you?
Trovas Veron!
--terranus | http://terranus.org--

LegendarySandwich

Quote from: "terranus"I understand where you're coming from here Asmodean. But choosing who we want to be born and who we don't can be a slippery slope. Ever see that movie Gattaca?

I'm not saying I'm against abortion - quite on the contrary. Like I said over on another thread, I believe you and your partner should be required to pass an IQ test before you can procreate - sort of like a "procreation license" if you will. Otherwise you will be forced to have an abortion.
Do you honestly believe that?

QuoteBut I have 2 friends with relatively minor birth defects, both of which have parents who's doctors told their mothers that they would not be able to function properly and be a productive member in today's society. Both my friends have jobs, 1 is a college graduate, and the other just got married and is due to graduate in the next year. So...you never really know just how productive that unborn fetus is really going to be until a long time after he/she is born, do you?
I agree. What is it they say...you can't judge a book by its cover? I think that's the right idiom.

The Magic Pudding

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"I agree. What is it they say...you can't judge a book by its cover? I think that's the right idiom.

I would have thought "don't count your chickens before they hatch" would be more apt, but I'm no expert, I'd have to check with KDbeads.

KDbeads

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"
Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"I agree. What is it they say...you can't judge a book by its cover? I think that's the right idiom.

I would have thought "don't count your chickens before they hatch" would be more apt, but I'm no expert, I'd have to check with KDbeads.

Well you could use that but that would mean candling them nearly every day during that pesky incubation period and you still might not get a full hatch of viables due to lack of strength to hatch and you may still have to cull some if they have defects no conducive with life for a chicken.....  All in all...... if it can't make it as a chicken without special help it's dead cause chickens are cannibalistic.  So not thinking it applies much here :hide:
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. - Douglas Adams

The Magic Pudding

Quote from: "KDbeads"Well you could use that but that would mean candling them nearly every day during that pesky incubation period and you still might not get a full hatch of viables due to lack of strength to hatch and you may still have to cull some if they have defects no conducive with life for a chicken.....  All in all...... if it can't make it as a chicken without special help it's dead cause chickens are cannibalistic.  So not thinking it applies much here :hide:

That all sounds very.... Borg.

elliebean

Quote from: "terranus"I'm not saying I'm against abortion - quite on the contrary. Like I said over on another thread, I believe you and your partner should be required to pass an IQ test before you can procreate - sort of like a "procreation license" if you will. Otherwise you will be forced to have an abortion.
I shudder to think what my parents' IQs must be.  :eek:

Then again, I'm full of birth defects and not what most would consider a "productive member of society"; but in my defense, that's mostly society's fault for never allowing me to be a full-fledged member.
[size=150]â€"Ellie [/size]
You can’t lie to yourself. If you do you’ve only fooled a deluded person and where’s the victory in that?â€"Ricky Gervais

elliebean

A point of relevance, as it's referred to in the thread title:

Political correctness is just another word for empathy. It's not surprising that its antagonists lack empathy.
[size=150]â€"Ellie [/size]
You can’t lie to yourself. If you do you’ve only fooled a deluded person and where’s the victory in that?â€"Ricky Gervais

terranus

QuoteDo you honestly believe that?

Yes, I do. There are far too many people in this world. Seriously. The human race has managed to go beyond it's population carrying capacity, which is a dangerous thing to do, because eventually nature will balance things out - even if it means a mass extinction. And before you get started, yes I know that even with incredibly smart parents a kid can come out dumber than a box of rocks - and vice versa. But statistically speaking, it's much more common for kids to inherit the same traits their parents have.

Of course, the more humanistic approach to this problem would be to enact a simple one- or two-child only law like China has done (ironic that China would be the more humanistic one here  :devil:
Trovas Veron!
--terranus | http://terranus.org--

Asmodean

Quote from: "Existentialist"You dehumanised the kid.  "Train wreck", "Pet".
No. I sub-humanized him, as I have throughout the post tried to refer to him as "he" or "kid", rather than "it" or "thing", even though there may have been an unedited slip here and there.

I stand by my classification of that human as subhuman in relation to functionality, both physical and mental, therein social. It is so far below average that it's nearly non-existent.

QuoteIf you want to argue your point more effectively you need to talk about the child like it's a human being.  The point being, I don't think you'd be able even to convince yourself of your argument if you talked about this child as a human being.
You haven't read many of my posts, have you..? I am not, nor do I aspire to be, a nice and good and gentle and kind kind of person. I am unemotional when discussing the issues of human life and, as such, to me there is no difference in only regarding the creature as human or comparing it to a fridge or doog food or a train wreck - whatever comparison may be appropriate for a given situation.

QuoteThat's why you have to resort to dehumanising the child.  That's what the far right do.  That's the problem with your stance, and the reason the woman called you what she did.  
No. I did NOT diminish him in any way. What I did do, however, was NOT projecting attributes on him which he, subjectively or otherwise, does not have. If I say, in content, that she knew the kid would be a train wreck with practically no motor skills, no communication and an IQ of unmeasurable slimness, I am not diminishing the person I am speaking about as long as what I say is verifiably correct. If you had one arm and one leg, how would it diminish you if someone pointed the fact out? Or are we all supposed to pretend you are no different from the flock?
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Asmodean

Quote from: "JoeBobSmith"you are arguing forced abortion...if ur mom was ugly and dumb should i have aborted you
Coherence fail.

To answer the only coherent sentence, no, I am NOT saying the government should decree such a kid aborted. What I am saying is that I, as a tax payer, should not have to pay for a poor human being (happy now, Existentiallist? :rant: Out of MY pocket  :rant: (Well, and a few million others, but you get the idea)

If she SO wanted that kid, at least the state should have told her that she was on her own financially after birth. If that forced her into abortion, well, GOOD, but leaving people a choice, it's not the same as forced abortion.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Existentialist

Quote from: "Asmodean"I am unemotional when discussing the issues of human life

That's sick.

Asmodean

#26
Quote from: "terranus"I understand where you're coming from here Asmodean. But choosing who we want to be born and who we don't can be a slippery slope. Ever see that movie Gattaca?
Movie: No, but now I'm interested...  :D

Rest: Yes, it can be a slippery slope. Which is why I think the preservation of choice is not a bad thing. However, this particular case is something for itself. As stated, it was known the kid would be nothing but a money drain for the society. There was NO plausible chance of him EVER becoming something useful, except maybe through science which is still far more than his expected lifetime away. Of course, if the mother insisted on having the kid regardless, well, good for her... Still, I don't want my taxes to pay for him. It's not just that he doesn't deserve it now - it's also that there is no chance at all that he ever will.

I think it's ok for people with Down's or with no limbs or deafblind or homeless or just plain old deadbeats to dip into my taxes a little - some of them, at least, give something back. After all, I am NOT paying over a third of my salary to the state out of the goodness of my heart. So basically, if a person was previously or is/was expected to be or has/had a chance of being at least a semiproductive member of the society, my rule of no support would not apply.

QuoteI'm not saying I'm against abortion - quite on the contrary. Like I said over on another thread, I believe you and your partner should be required to pass an IQ test before you can procreate - sort of like a "procreation license" if you will. Otherwise you will be forced to have an abortion.
And me, I agree.

QuoteBut I have 2 friends with relatively minor birth defects, both of which have parents who's doctors told their mothers that they would not be able to function properly and be a productive member in today's society. Both my friends have jobs, 1 is a college graduate, and the other just got married and is due to graduate in the next year. So...you never really know just how productive that unborn fetus is really going to be until a long time after he/she is born, do you?
Point seen, of course, yet there is a gaping casm between "not function properly" and "not function [period]". I'd give a kid who would just "not function properly" a chance. One who simply would. not. function. on the other hand, I would scrap before birth.

EDIT: added a tense. Slight speed typing oversight
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Asmodean

Quote from: "Existentialist"That's sick.
Maybe. My perspective does allow me to apply logic where many people do not though, so I see it as a positive thing.

EDIT: Would you address my question beneath the point you did answer, please..? It WAS an actual question, not just a remark with a question sign behind.  :P
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Existentialist

Quote from: "Asmodean"scrap

Scrap.  

There is a word for an emotionless individual who treats human life like an inanimate object.  Psychopath.

There is a lot of truly psychopathic reasoning coming from Asmodean today.  At the moment I am in two minds about whether he is doing it just for attention, or if he really believes it.  It's pretty extreme, pretty sickening, and we seem to be completely powerless to respond to it in this forum on the level we really want to. Some Laid Back Lounge this is turning out to be.

Existentialist

Quote from: "Asmodean"My perspective does allow me to apply logic where many people do not though

Your logic is compassionless.  That's what makes your approach psychopathic, that's why you didn't mind hurting the woman whose child it was (if the story was even true).  That's why you're playing this game with the rest of us.  

Quote from: "Asmodean"EDIT: Would you address my question beneath the point you did answer, please..? It WAS an actual question, not just a remark with a question sign behind.  :P

I answered the whole of your post.  I selected just one quote that summed it all up.  There's no need for me to add anything.