Theist Commentary: How to tell your family you are an atheist.

[iSok]

The reason I came here is ... to understand why people reject God.

Hello iSok

Are you assuming that all atheists reject god?

I haven't accepted any theories about the existence of god/s yet as I am waiting for some proof to come along. I haven't rejected them outright yet as there is no proof with regards to disproving the theories either.

I do have major concerns with regards to the intolerance that is taught by most faiths, this intolerance is against my personal values. I definately feel that I personally am more tolerant, forgiving, loving and less angry, vengefull and homocidal than the Christian god as described in the bible, so if proof of the Christian god came around I may actually decide to reject that god with regards to worship and or other demands made by it, but without proof I have simply put the theories aside into the unkown pile and would revisit if some conclusive proof comes up.

I don't know much about the muslim god so can't really comment, but it seems to have no proof either so onto the same pile. No rejection just yet.

Hello Stevil, well as far as I know there are atheists and agnostics.
an atheists rejects every religion, they just don't believe in God anymore.
an agnostic says there is a possibility a God could exist, but hasn't found it through any religion (yet).
Am I right? Correct me if I'm wrong.

We regard the Christian/Jew scriptures as corrupt (sorry if I offended any Christians or Jews here).
I gave some proves (I think) in my topic 'why are we here? - Islam'.

We muslims regard the Qur'an as divine. We believe we have many proves.
A site that explains this (not about miracles in the Qur'an or prophecies, but about the linguistic aspect) with a few arguments is this one http://www.theinimitablequran.com/

I'm pretty sure the Islamic answer to why people reject god is because god hardened their hearts...at least, that's what the quran told me when I made an attempt to read it (before I decided I had better things to do).

You have to think a bit further than to stop reading after a few pages. God gave you a soul, a soul which has morals, a soul which wants to lay contact with the divine.
If you continuosly deny the existence of God, that part of your soul eventually weakens and doesn't call out anymore, it gets blind.
So yes, your heart gets hardened and there's effort needed to rebuild that part.
You shouldn't read the Qur'an as a novel or something, there's a lot of meaning in every verse which you have to think about.
You could have read further to understand the message and what does He mean by darkening the heart, but with your own (free will) you stopped.
The Qur'an continuosly talks about unbelievers/disbelievers, it's not about common people, but about people who fully understand the message and yet they reject
it for wordly gains.
The Qur'an is an universal message, meant for the mass and the intellectual.

There's a speech from Professor Jeffrey Lang, a mathematician who converted.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVQ1BWqjTjs
He explains a lot I guess in his speech. If you have the time the will and the patience
to listen to it, then do it. You've only time to lose as far as I'm concerned.

EDIT: a part to add about the 'disbelievers', in the Qur'an 'disbeliever' also mean for example people who never got the message of the Qur'an but do understand the morals
God gave us. for Example Foday Sankoh or Charles Taylor (most likely you know them), if they were not ill they are probably very 'bad' people in this world.
'bad'  doesn't exist without God, 'bad/evil'  is the absence of God. Foday Sankoh and Charles Taylor probably knew that it is 'wrong' to kill people
but they still did it for money and power.

[Tank]

Thank you for the detailed and I feel honest reply. I think we may be getting to see the 'real' you a little.

How should I know if you were pushing my buttons?

You were not supposed to know I was pushing buttons, that was the point. If you had realised then the reaction would have been false. You reacted to aggression with aggression. You were continuing a downward spiral that would have just got worse. There are expert 'button pushers' out here who will get you screaming at your screen. You'll get upset, sometimes rightly so, break forum rules and get banned. It's a common technique.

How does one cope with this? Simply be true to yourself and your aspirational world view, don't get drawn into retaliating or being spiteful or rude. If you can keep clam and remain polite people will respect you and see you as a reasonable, rational individual. If you bite back then you'll just look like another online 'rage boy'.

I never concluded anything, as a matter of fact, I have a lot of atheist friends. But they don't really talk about religion, since they are not really interested (phase of life?).

Could be a phase of life thing, but I think it's more a case of relationship preservation. When one discusses religion one is tackling a very deep seated and emotionally sensitive subject and it's not always a good idea to go there. One of the other mature students in my class is a white Bosnian Muslim, Admir. He is the only person I have gotten to discuss Islam with and why he considers himself a Muslim. All the other non-whites are Asian but come from some interesting backgrounds. I hope to get to know some of the others better during the next semester.

 

The reason I came here is that some people on this forum were still looking for God.

While I can't speak for all here I think you will find you're wasting your time on this forum trying to find people who are looking for God. I think the majority here (slightly more than half atheists are ex-theists) have found God and been decidedly disappointed in what they found. The remainder, like me, simply find the 'God Hypothesis' an unsatisfying description of the way the world works.

My intention was to give info about Islam(which is quite misunderstood) and to understandhy people reject God.

Ouch! It might be the way you have phrased yourself their 'give info about Islam' is not a good idea. You instantly sound like the preacher banging on the door. Believe me if you stick around, and I really hope you do, you will have plenty of opportunity to add an Islamic input into discussions here. You can start threads on subjects you are interested in and in those threads you can be more demonstrative about what you think, it's your thread. But coming over as 'holier than thouh' preachy type just gets people's back up and that can grow to a flame war and then all is lost as reasoned and reasonable discussion goes out of the window.

If you ask people why they reject God they are not automatically giving you permission to criticise their reasons or choice. When I joined TheologyWeb I asked why people believed the Bible because I was genuinely interested in why some people did something that I consider strange to put it mildly. All I did was thank each person for their input and if people in the thread started to debate the rights and wrongs of each others views I asked them to stop. In due course I got some very interesting input because people did not feel threatened by my enquiry. However what you have done is immediately taken people to task on why they have in your eye 'rejected God'. That is a bad strategy as you appear to simply be looking for rock to throw back at people.

Do I have a right to tell you not to be a Muslim? No I don't. Do you have a right to tell me not to be an atheist? No you don't. If you want to try and convert people here you will eventually get kicked off. If you want to learn the ask but do not criticise in the 'first person'. It is best to phrase questions in an open and inviting manner, not a closed critical manner. You will get much more from an impersonal discussion than a personal argument.

I didn't want to find the nasty atheist...I don't know you, and what you think but somehow you already know me?

I don't know you, I'm still investigating who you are and what you represent. The most impressive positive point so far was linking to the Egyptian ladies and the Afghan Shepard. You refuted my comments with facts. The most negative point was likening me (as an atheist) to all the worst atrocities in the last century. The 'Hitler was and atheist' tripe is sooo out of date.

I think if we take a look at the current situation in the world; Muslims are probably the most daemonised people in the world. It's quite rare to find a forum without prejudice towards Islam or Muslims.

I think you're mostly right on both counts there. If in doubt ask, don't assume.

I never insulted you before, see my debate with other members. Did I go harsh on them?

You were rude and bad mannered, but I did provoke you so I can hardly blame you. But one does have control over what one types comments like 'You'll never have the life experience I have.' are mean spirited, rude, wrong and not worthy of a good person, irrespective of the provocation received.

About the forum, you can start looking at http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/forum.php (Sunniforum)
The forum is actually more about 'Islamic principles', like how to pray, how to fast, how to read the Quran.
Lets say the people over there already concluded that they are Muslim and submit to God/Allah, they just want to have more info.
But you can easily start a debate with 'Why do you believe in God?'.

If you need more info, PM me.

Thanks for the link I shall go and have a look.

[Stevil]

Hello Stevil, well as far as I know there are atheists and agnostics.
an atheists rejects every religion, they just don't believe in God anymore.
an agnostic says there is a possibility a God could exist, but hasn't found it through any religion (yet).
Am I right? Correct me if I'm wrong.

With regards to this site here is a good definition of Atheist and Agnostic http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=830
I think most people belonging to this site are weak atheists and hence they would also be agnostic.
In short they don't have a belief in god/s and they recognise that there is no knowledge (proof) for or against god/s. Generally it is not an out and out rejection, you could say they are on the fence waiting for some definitive proof however, more than likely they think it is highly unlikely that any god theory is true. Some have delved into the Bible, possibly the Qur'an and decided that they can reject a specific belief, that is not true for me. I have very limited knowledge as to the writings within scriptures and I am currently of the understanding that there are no religions that offer definitive proof.

We regard the Christian/Jew scriptures as corrupt (sorry if I offended any Christians or Jews here).

No need to beat around the bush here. Most people will appreciate you getting right to the point, obviously within reason, as long as you don't make personal attacks against forum members. In fact I assume most participants would prefer for you to get right to the point, being concise and factual makes it easier for us to read your posts and to take on board your key points without having to read through endless waffle and preaching that some people post.

I gave some proves (I think) in my topic 'why are we here? - Islam'.

I will endeavour to look this up, thanks for notifying me.

We muslims regard the Qur'an as divine. We think we have many proofs.

As do the Christians with regards to the Bible, the Jews with regards to the Torah, Hindu with regards to their scriptures, etc, etc...

A site that explains this (not about miracles in the Qur'an or prophecies, but about the linguistic aspect) with a few arguments is this one http://www.theinimitablequran.com/

Thanks again for the reference. I will look this up. If it is too lengthy I may give it a pass though. I am of the stance that the truth should amost always be succinct and to the point, if things get too wordy then it is probably for a reason and generally it is distraction, confusion or other sundry to avoid the fact that there is no proof.

It is not my intent to try to prove to you that your belief is incorrect, that is neither my will nor want. I respect you and your belief in your faith and i think it is great that you are on this site as I know very little about muslims.

[iSok]

Well Tank, I'll give a short summary.


I indeed came here to give info about Islam, I hoped it would make people think.
Since there are a lot of people in this world who think that the best a muslim could do
is to blow himself up and kill as many infidels as possible.

Reaction towards you, if I ignored you or stayed quiet that would mean
I had nothing to say, to prove you, you are wrong. I did that in the past on a few forums
and people were already assuming that since I didn't reply I had nothing against it.
Most people do read these replies and it affects them, so I basically took your arguments and helped them out of the world.

If you did push my buttons, you did succeed. But then again I barely know you, and out of 100 people
90 of them actually reacts like that. I am not really to blame for that part.
I am sorry if I did hurt your feelings.

About Hitler, being an atheist (he never said he was or a christian) etc...that was by far not my point..
Most people (who do not believe in any religion) assume that without religion the world would be much better off.
There would be no more wars, no more poverty..etc..
I just gave that argument that we human beings are quite weak, and tend to do 'evil' things even without
the purpose of religion. So that even without religion we assurely will destroy each other.

I can go even further. I often listen to lectures given by Sam Harris or Dawkin's to see what
they actually think of relgions. There's an interview with him where he says this in some way.

'Religion is a waste of time, there are more important things to spend time on, so that those things could benefit us. Like making plans, thinking about
how to defend ourselves against a nucear attack.'

This really shocked me....I don't know if he understood well what he just said.
But if the russians are told the same? Would that lead to something good?

So what I meant about Hitler, I did not mean.

Hitler = Atheist (which I did not say..Sophus assumes I did)
Hitler = Bad
Atheists = Bad

but that even without religion we humans will never stop with 'evil'.

[iSok]

Thanks again for the reference. I will look this up. If it is too lengthy I may give it a pass though. I am of the stance that the truth should amost always be succinct and to the point, if things get too wordy then it is probably for a reason and generally it is distraction, confusion or other sundry to avoid the fact that there is no proof.

It is not my intent to try to prove to you that your belief is incorrect, that is neither my will nor want. I respect you and your belief in your faith and i think it is great that you are on this site as I know very little about muslims.

The author of that website is Hamza Andreas Tzortzis, a humanist who converted to Islam a while ago.
He is an international speaker on Islam and frequently debates with agnostics, atheists and humanists.
You can find his debates on Youtube.


'Can we live better lives without religion?' Hamza Andreas Tzortzis vs Peter cave
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJOZXZ480dA&playnext=1&list=PLBA23E76938E17224&index=2

[Whitney]

I'm pretty sure the Islamic answer to why people reject god is because god hardened their hearts...at least, that's what the quran told me when I made an attempt to read it (before I decided I had better things to do).

You have to think a bit further than to stop reading after a few pages. God gave you a soul, a soul which has morals, a soul which wants to lay contact with the divine.
If you continuosly deny the existence of God, that part of your soul eventually weakens and doesn't call out anymore, it gets blind.
So yes, your heart gets hardened and there's effort needed to rebuild that part.
You shouldn't read the Qur'an as a novel or something, there's a lot of meaning in every verse which you have to think about.
You could have read further to understand the message and what does He mean by darkening the heart, but with your own (free will) you stopped.
The Qur'an continuosly talks about unbelievers/disbelievers, it's not about common people, but about people who fully understand the message and yet they reject
it for wordly gains.
The Qur'an is an universal message, meant for the mass and the intellectual.

So in order to read the quran correctly I basically have to first believe it is something more than just a book....  seems like putting the cart before the horse if you ask me.

[iSok]

I'm pretty sure the Islamic answer to why people reject god is because god hardened their hearts...at least, that's what the quran told me when I made an attempt to read it (before I decided I had better things to do).

You have to think a bit further than to stop reading after a few pages. God gave you a soul, a soul which has morals, a soul which wants to lay contact with the divine.
If you continuosly deny the existence of God, that part of your soul eventually weakens and doesn't call out anymore, it gets blind.
So yes, your heart gets hardened and there's effort needed to rebuild that part.
You shouldn't read the Qur'an as a novel or something, there's a lot of meaning in every verse which you have to think about.
You could have read further to understand the message and what does He mean by darkening the heart, but with your own (free will) you stopped.
The Qur'an continuosly talks about unbelievers/disbelievers, it's not about common people, but about people who fully understand the message and yet they reject
it for wordly gains.
The Qur'an is an universal message, meant for the mass and the intellectual.

So in order to read the quran correctly I basically have to first believe it is something more than just a book....  seems like putting the cart before the horse if you ask me.

I didn't say you have to believe in it, I only said finish the book before you conclude anything.
Something which is quite common according to all logic and laws as far as I know.

[LegendarySandwich]

I didn't say you have to believe in it, I only said finish the book before you conclude anything.
Something which is quite common according to all logic and laws as far as I know.

Have you fully read the Bible?
How about the Book of Mormon?
How about Dianetics by L. Ron Hubbard?

[iSok]

I didn't say you have to believe in it, I only said finish the book before you conclude anything.
Something which is quite common according to all logic and laws as far as I know.

Have you fully read the Bible?
How about the Book of Mormon?
How about Dianetics by L. Ron Hubbard?

I read the bible.I didn't read the Book of Mormon. I didn't read Dianetics.
What are you trying to say?

[LegendarySandwich]

I didn't say you have to believe in it, I only said finish the book before you conclude anything.
Something which is quite common according to all logic and laws as far as I know.

Have you fully read the Bible?
How about the Book of Mormon?
How about Dianetics by L. Ron Hubbard?

I read the bible.I didn't read the Book of Mormon. I didn't read Dianetics.
What are you trying to say?

How can you logically deny their validity/divinity if you haven't read them?

[Stevil]

I gave some proves (I think) in my topic 'why are we here? - Islam'

I read through the first three pages and the last two pages of that thread and couldn't see any proof that you have offered. It would help if you narrow my search for me.
Although i did notice that other forum members had made it quite clear to you what an atheist is, so I am not sure why you still made a statement about them rejecting god in this thread.

We muslims regard the Qur'an as divine. We believe we have many proves.
A site that explains this (not about miracles in the Qur'an or prophecies, but about the linguistic aspect) with a few arguments is this one http://www.theinimitablequran.com/

That's an interesting belief, I didn't know that. A religion that worships penmanship, that is actually quite nice. Unfortunately since I don't know Arabic I will never be able to appreciate this aspect of the Qur'an. BTW just out of interest, do muslims hold Shakespear in high regard, spiritually?

[Whitney]

I read the bible.I didn't read the Book of Mormon. I didn't read Dianetics.
What are you trying to say?

How can you logically deny their validity/divinity if you haven't read them?

 

[iSok]

I gave some proves (I think) in my topic 'why are we here? - Islam'

I read through the first three pages and the last two pages of that thread and couldn't see any proof that you have offered. It would help if you narrow my search for me.
Although i did notice that other forum members had made it quite clear to you what an atheist is, so I am not sure why you still made a statement about them rejecting god in this thread.

We muslims regard the Qur'an as divine. We believe we have many proves.
A site that explains this (not about miracles in the Qur'an or prophecies, but about the linguistic aspect) with a few arguments is this one http://www.theinimitablequran.com/

That's an interesting belief, I didn't know that. A religion that worships penmanship, that is actually quite nice. Unfortunately since I don't know Arabic I will never be able to appreciate this aspect of the Qur'an. BTW just out of interest, do muslims hold Shakespear in high regard, spiritually?

Well, during the revelation of the Qur'an, Muhammad (pbuh) was never accused of being the author even not by his ennemies.
His ennemies thought he was under a spell.
During that time the Arabic language was probably at it's  best, so his ennemies asked the best poets of the Arab world to try
and imitate the Qur'an. All of them failed that task. Some of them converted to Islam, others accused him of black magic.

The revelation of the Qur'an took 23 years. Muhammad (pbuh) got his first message at the age of 40 by the Angel Gabriel.
And his last at the age of 63

Verse(5:3);
"Today I perfected your religion for you and completed my favor to you and have chosen for you Al-Islam as your religion."
This was the last revelation, after a month or two he died.

In those 23 years he went through hell..His wife was killed, people stoned him.
He almost starved to death, for months the only food he had were dates and water.
Four of his sons died. Lets say it wasn't a pleasant time.|

But in the Qur'an we don't find his emotions. Every human being would
change a bit during such turbulent times over a period of 23 years, yet the Qur'an
stays consistents, it's melody does not change. The rethorical aspect does not change.
It stays very consistent. We don't see the Qur'an 'changing' because of the experiences of one person.

There's for example a whole chapter
about the mother of Jesus, Mary. Yet, his wife's name is not even revealed. who died because of persecution.
None of his sons or his direct family are noted in the Qur'an.

Muhammad (pbuh) was illiterate, so whenever he got a revelation.
He would just tell the people, the people around him would immediatly memorise it.
So even if he was an author, he had only one chance. He couldn't make a
mistake, since people would immediatly memorise it.

We do know how Muhammad (pbuh) spoke, his sayings (The Hadith) are very well documented.
His sayings do not resemble the Qur'an at all. Muhammad (pbuh) thought for example
that every disease can be cured, so the Hadith also include recipes for a lot of potions he thought would work to cure diseases.
In the Qur'an we don't find this.

Another remark, is the completion of the Qur'an. And that Muhammad (pbuh) was not killed in those 23 years.
Every Arab household wanted him dead, assasins were sent after him. But no one could kill him.
Most of the time he was on his own. You can search these events up.

Muslims and Non-muslim scholars agree that the Qur'an is by far the most magnificent work of the Arabic language.
The Qur'an has not been preceeded or succeeded by a book of it's kind. This what they agree on.

In the Qur'an Allah promises that He will make sure that the message of the Qur'an doesn't get altered.
Up to date the Qur'an does not contain a single contradiction. You may try to find one.
The original Qur'an, five or eight examples (the first written) were sent to different parts of
the Arab peninsula, two of those copies have survived.
One is in Istanbul, the other is in Kazachstan I thought.

Furthermore the Qur'an also
is written in a certain way. It contains certain phrases that no man could have known.
The expansion of the universe for example is a phrase that no man knew back then.

I can give you a lot of more examples.
Well if you're still interested you can look further and read more about it's history. If not, don't waste your time.


@Ls, I'll give you my answer. But my answer will no doubt lead to discussion, so bear with me.
Monday my first subject is Quanto mechanics, the hardest of my finals. So I hope I can answer you monday.

[LegendarySandwich]

I gave some proves (I think) in my topic 'why are we here? - Islam'

I read through the first three pages and the last two pages of that thread and couldn't see any proof that you have offered. It would help if you narrow my search for me.
Although i did notice that other forum members had made it quite clear to you what an atheist is, so I am not sure why you still made a statement about them rejecting god in this thread.

We muslims regard the Qur'an as divine. We believe we have many proves.
A site that explains this (not about miracles in the Qur'an or prophecies, but about the linguistic aspect) with a few arguments is this one http://www.theinimitablequran.com/

That's an interesting belief, I didn't know that. A religion that worships penmanship, that is actually quite nice. Unfortunately since I don't know Arabic I will never be able to appreciate this aspect of the Qur'an. BTW just out of interest, do muslims hold Shakespear in high regard, spiritually?

Well, during the revelation of the Qur'an, Muhammad (pbuh) was never accused of being the author even not by his ennemies.
His ennemies thought he was under a spell.
During that time the Arabic language was probably at it's  best, so his ennemies asked the best poets of the Arab world to try
and imitate the Qur'an. All of them failed that task. Some of them converted to Islam, others accused him of black magic.

The revelation of the Qur'an took 23 years. Muhammad (pbuh) got his first message at the age of 40 by the Angel Gabriel.
And his last at the age of 63

Verse(5:3);
"Today I perfected your religion for you and completed my favor to you and have chosen for you Al-Islam as your religion."
This was the last revelation, after a month or two he died.

In those 23 years he went through hell..His wife was killed, people stoned him.
He almost starved to death, for months the only food he had were dates and water.
Four of his sons died. Lets say it wasn't a pleasant time.|

But in the Qur'an we don't find his emotions. Every human being would
change a bit during such turbulent times over a period of 23 years, yet the Qur'an
stays consistents, it's melody does not change. The rethorical aspect does not change.
It stays very consistent. We don't see the Qur'an 'changing' because of the experiences of one person.

There's for example a whole chapter
about the mother of Jesus, Mary. Yet, his wife's name is not even revealed. who died because of persecution.
None of his sons or his direct family are noted in the Qur'an.

Muhammad (pbuh) was illiterate, so whenever he got a revelation.
He would just tell the people, the people around him would immediatly memorise it.
So even if he was an author, he had only one chance. He couldn't make a
mistake, since people would immediatly memorise it.

We do know how Muhammad (pbuh) spoke, his sayings (The Hadith) are very well documented.
His sayings do not resemble the Qur'an at all. Muhammad (pbuh) thought for example
that every disease can be cured, so the Hadith also include recipes for a lot of potions he thought would work to cure diseases.
In the Qur'an we don't find this.

Another remark, is the completion of the Qur'an. And that Muhammad (pbuh) was not killed in those 23 years.
Every Arab household wanted him dead, assasins were sent after him. But no one could kill him.
Most of the time he was on his own. You can search these events up.

Muslims and Non-muslim scholars agree that the Qur'an is by far the most magnificent work of the Arabic language.
The Qur'an has not been preceeded or succeeded by a book of it's kind. This what they agree on.

In the Qur'an Allah promises that He will make sure that the message of the Qur'an doesn't get altered.
Up to date the Qur'an does not contain a single contradiction. You may try to find one.
The original Qur'an, five or eight examples (the first written) were sent to different parts of
the Arab peninsula, two of those copies have survived.
One is in Istanbul, the other is in Kazachstan I thought.

Furthermore the Qur'an also
is written in a certain way. It contains certain phrases that no man could have known.
The expansion of the universe for example is a phrase that no man knew back then.

I can give you a lot of more examples.
Well if you're still interested you can look further and read more about it's history. If not, don't waste your time.


@Ls, I'll give you my answer. But my answer will no doubt lead to discussion, so bear with me.
Monday my first subject is Quanto mechanics, the hardest of my finals. So I hope I can answer you monday.

Occam's Razor. We can either assume the Qur'an is just a book of stories and what have you, or that everything in it is true and that a omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent God that intervenes in human affairs and revealed himself to an Arabic man way back when really does exist, because it's written beautifully and some of its scripture can possibly made to look like vague and simplistic predictions of modern scientific knowledge.

If that's your only proof that the Qur'an is true, then I find it sorely lacking and not compelling at all.

I'm also interested in how you're going to weasel your way out of not being a hypocrite when you accuse us of not being logical or rational when we haven't read your holy book, but you yourself still being logical and rational when you haven't read some of the ones I listed.

[iSok]

Occam's Razor. We can either assume the Qur'an is just a book of stories and what have you, or that everything in it is true and that a omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent God that intervenes in human affairs and revealed himself to an Arabic man way back when really does exist, because it's written beautifully and some of its scripture can possibly made to look like vague and simplistic predictions of modern scientific knowledge.

If that's your only proof that the Qur'an is true, then I find it sorely lacking and not compelling at all.

I'm also interested in how you're going to weasel your way out of not being a hypocrite when you accuse us of not being logical or rational when we haven't read your holy book, but you yourself still being logical and rational when you haven't read some of the ones I listed.

This hypocrit will his weasel his way out on monday.