2nd Amendment Remedies

[KDbeads]

IN addition; I'm a gun owner myself. :yay:
After all, I plan on farm life

[Kylyssa]

Oh, and I forgot to disagree with the impact of a death by murder and a death by accident having the same effect on friends and family.  I lost a friend to murder and I have much more pent up anger and negative feelings regarding his death than I do about the accidental deaths of another friend.  I do, however have almost as much negativity and pent up anger about the deaths of a family member and another close friend due to medical negligence.

[Sophus]

Perhaps the heated rhetoric lately really has been a mere coincidence, because as noted Loughner is really off his rocker and may not even be capable of understanding political rhetoric. And unfortunately, mass shootings aren't that uncommon in America.

This is an old Democrat chart from 2004 not too unlike Sarah's. Though it's been suggested it looks more like a dart board than gunsights, and it also doesn't target any specific names.



Like I said, I don't think Sarah's chart was the worst of rhetoric coming from the Tea Party, nor is it likely to be directly related to this shooting.

[Sophus]

Does this related story deserve its own thread? Arizona is likely to outlaw Westboro Baptist Church from protesting within 300 yards of the funerals for the victims. About time!

[LegendarySandwich]

Does this related story deserve its own thread? Arizona is likely to outlaw Westboro Baptist Church from protesting within 300 yards of the funerals for the victims. About time!

Taking away freedom of speech and expression is not the right way to deal with these trolls.

[Sophus]

Does this related story deserve its own thread? Arizona is likely to outlaw Westboro Baptist Church from protesting within 300 yards of the funerals for the victims. About time!

Taking away freedom of speech and expression is not the right way to deal with these trolls.

You see, I disagree. It's not taking away their freedom of speech; they can still yell all the absurd epithets they want 300 ft away from the funeral. You can't bring hate speech into the work place so why on earth would we allow them to crash a funeral?

Also, troll is too kind a word.

[Davin]

Does this related story deserve its own thread? Arizona is likely to outlaw Westboro Baptist Church from protesting within 300 yards of the funerals for the victims. About time!

Taking away freedom of speech and expression is not the right way to deal with these trolls.

There's a not so fine a line between harassment and freedom of speech in my view. I think it's pretty clear that telling families of soldiers and victims that their son/daughter/father/mother died because of gays in America while they're burying them is harassment. Just like a dude constantly following a girl calling her a slut, whore, bitch and/or many other things all the time can be deemed as harassment.

[Sophus]

More back to the original topic, I wonder if it's only a matter of time until atheists and nihilists start falling under verbal attack. Loughner was described by friends as a nihilist and Nietzsche reader.

[Cecilie]

Apparently she's breathing on her own now and was able to recognize her husband. Not bad for being shot in the head.

[Tank]

Does this related story deserve its own thread? Arizona is likely to outlaw Westboro Baptist Church from protesting within 300 yards of the funerals for the victims. About time!

Taking away freedom of speech and expression is not the right way to deal with these trolls.

They are not taking away freedom of speech or expression at all. They are simply acknowledging the fact that the timing or placement of free speech and expression can impact on the safety/security/well-being of others.

In the UK there was a Muslim group that wanted to protest about UK military involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan. They wanted to hold their march on the same day as the funerals of dead soldiers. The local authorities said they could have their march, but not on the day of the funeral as there was the likelihood that there could be a 'breach of the peace'. Needless to say the Muslims squealed like stuck pigs about the decision and could not be arsed to have their protest on a day when a funeral was not being held. Go figure their motives. The local magistrate was spot on.

Denial of free speech or expression is when one is never allowed to say or show what one feels. A sensible society has every right to defend itself from shit disturbing arseholes out for publicity at the expense of others.

[McQ]

I agree with Legendary Sandwich. Cant speak for other countries, but in the U.S., even though we may not like what WBC is doing, their speech is protected under our constitution. I am not in favor of suppressing their right to do it, because someday my right to stand at the foot of the steps of the U.S. Capitol and protest might then be suppressed.

Best thing to do is what others have done and place peaceful counterprotestors between them and their targets. It works great and makes WBC essentially go away. It's a method proven to work to nullify them and makes their presence unnoticed by those who would have been affected.

[The Magic Pudding]

I agree with Legendary Sandwich. Cant speak for other countries, but in the U.S., even though we may not like what WBC is doing, their speech is protected under our constitution. I am not in favor of suppressing their right to do it, because someday my right to stand at the foot of the steps of the U.S. Capitol and protest might then be suppressed.

Are you saying you're opposed to state laws preventing demonstrations at funerals?

OK maybe if someone feels the need demonstrate at the funeral of a gay soldier I'll spit on them, but a nine year old girl I'm lost, why can't we just point at these people and name them a disgrace to humanity and everyone see this as true?

[McQ]

I agree with Legendary Sandwich. Cant speak for other countries, but in the U.S., even though we may not like what WBC is doing, their speech is protected under our constitution. I am not in favor of suppressing their right to do it, because someday my right to stand at the foot of the steps of the U.S. Capitol and protest might then be suppressed.

Are you saying you're opposed to state laws preventing demonstrations at funerals?

OK maybe if someone feels the need demonstrate at the funeral of a gay soldier I'll spit on them, but a nine year old girl I'm lost, why can't we just point at these people and name them a disgrace to humanity and everyone see this as true?

I'm against prohibiting free speech in the U.S. as defined by the Constitution and upheld by our Supreme Court. That's all. I don't think of this as some black and white matter. It is extremely difficult, and emotional. Do I want WBC demonstrating at funerals of anyone? Of course not. I think those people are as fucked up as people can be. But they are guaranteed that right to do the shit they do, just like I would be if I decided to demonstrate at their funerals. In the U.S., even the Nazis and KKK can have a rally or demonstration. I don't like that they DO IT, but they have the right. I believe in that right for all U.S. Citizens; that's one of the benefits of citizenship in this country.

I can stand on the Capitol steps and yell that Congress is full of crap. I can protest freely. There are already limits to what is considered free speech in this country, and I hope it continues to be refined.

You can do all the things you mentioned already, without any new laws. You can point these people out and call them names, make people aware of them, etc. But what has worked well at funerals in the past has been to completely minimize their presence by human walls of peaceful counterprotestors. It serves the purpose of shielding family and friends from these assholes, and making them look pathetic. It also causes them to waste their own time and money to travel to funerals, because in the end, they are not getting what they want out of it. Since that works, and puts a financial strain on WBC, I think that's the best way to go. They can't do this forever. Hell, their whole "church" is really just the extended family of their demented founder. They'll run out of true believers fast after he's gone.

That's what I'm saying.

[Sophus]

I don't like that they DO IT, but they have the right.

They don't have that right in Indiana, Michigan, South Dakota, Illinois, at any National Cemetery, and now they don't have it at Arizona. Freedom of speech has always had limits, and there is, as Davin said, an enormous difference between protests versus harassment and hate speech. As a nation there are penalties for similar behavior in the workplace or for kids at school. Why would a mother just trying to bury her 9 year-old not have at least the same right to a peaceful environment? Westboro is provoking people, plain and simple.

[McQ]

I don't like that they DO IT, but they have the right.

They don't have that right in Indiana, Michigan, South Dakota, Illinois, at any National Cemetery, and now they don't have it at Arizona. Freedom of speech has always had limits, and there is, as Davin said, an enormous difference between protests versus harassment and hate speech. As a nation there are penalties for similar behavior in the workplace or for kids at school. Why would a mother just trying to bury her 9 year-old not have at least the same right to a peaceful environment? Westboro is provoking people, plain and simple.

Sophus, I hear you. Don't mistake what I said as support for WBC. I was careful to make it clear that I am against what they do. I never addressed a State's right to enact legislation. I also already acknowledged that there are limits to free speech and that I hope they continue to be refined (a la Arizona). Of course I don't want these clowns anywhere near a funeral. But they were allowed to be, and will be allowed to (elsewhere) until the government gets a handle on what "hate speech" is. And that is a slippery slope, by the way. Who gets to define it? What will the social norms today allow vs. ten years or fifty years from now? Limiting speech is limiting speech. Ask anyone in living in a theocracy. It ain't cut and dry.

Separate issue: Where were all the lawmakers before now?  Shame on anyone who was silent on this while members of the armed services have been vilified by WBC all these years. It took a Democratic Congresswoman to be shot, a Federal Judge to be murdered, and some civilians to be murdered for so many people to speak up and act.