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Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?

Started by LegendarySandwich, January 02, 2011, 11:10:21 PM

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LegendarySandwich

Recently, I've been thinking about the morality of Internet piracy, which is actually just sharing things that the government and companies don't want you to.

Is it the same thing as, say, going into Blockbuster and stealing Jackass from them? I say it isn't. First off, it isn't physical property -- at its core, it's just information. Second, infinite copies can be produced. Third, the Internet is supposed to be open and free. Placing unnecessary restrictions on what people can do is immoral, in my opinion. Fourth, it's really, really hard to enforce anti-sharing laws, so why spend so much money trying to stop it?

I think all laws trying to stop Internet piracy are just plain stupid. Some people might say that without laws like these, everything would be stolen/shared for free, the creators of the content wouldn't get paid, and thus they would stop producing the content. I think this is evidently false. Even in the vast realm of piracy and illegal activity we call the Internet, people are still making money. Take Netflix, for instance. Anyone can go onto ThePirateBay, type in a few words, and get a movie for free, with almost zero threat of consequences. Then why is Netflix so successful? Because they have a business model that works. Netflix is cheap, convenient, and is great quality for the price you pay. This shows that if companies stop clinging to their old, outdated business models and embrace the future, money can be made amidst a world of free sharing.

Your thoughts? Am I wrong? If so, why?

Whitney

I think that if someone wants to share their own copyrighted material on the internet via a specific medium they should expect that it would not be okay for someone to distribute that material in a manner they haven't agreed to.

It's not just music...it's books, photography, graphic designs, company names etc; I don't see how being on the internet should make copyright and trademark laws any less valid.

I think people pay for netflix, itunes, etc because they don't want to chance being caught downloading pirated data and they can trust the source won't give their computer a virus.  If it weren't for the legal concerns there would probably be a free ad supported site that provided the movies/music for free that we could trust to use (like Napster before it was forced to charge).

terranus

The reason internet sharing is mostly considered "wrong" and illegal is because sharing violates core principles of greedy capitalism. In a true Communist state, internet sharing would never be challenged as an illegal or immoral practice. It wouldn't even be a controversial issue at all. Why do you think internet "piracy" is so much higher in countries like China?
Trovas Veron!
--terranus | http://terranus.org--

LegendarySandwich

Quote from: "Whitney"I think that if someone wants to share their own copyrighted material on the internet via a specific medium they should expect that it would not be okay for someone to distribute that material in a manner they haven't agreed to.

It's not just music...it's books, photography, graphic designs, company names etc; I don't see how being on the internet should make copyright and trademark laws any less valid.

I think people pay for netflix, itunes, etc because they don't want to chance being caught downloading pirated data and they can trust the source won't give their computer a virus.  If it weren't for the legal concerns there would probably be a free ad supported site that provided the movies/music for free that we could trust to use (like Napster before it was forced to charge).
I refer you to the four points I made in the original post.

The Internet is like the ultimate free market -- at least, it would be without these stupid restrictions the Government places on it (that DON'T WORK). The Internet is new and radically different than anything we have ever had before. You can't just place the same laws we have on everything else and think it will work. The Internet needs new business models and laws.

Ultimately, any restrictions or regulations on the Internet slow things down, even if the intentions were good.

I don't think many people choose not to pirate because they're scared of getting caught. The other reasons that people use for refusing to pirate are real reasons, though, I think, and proof that people will still pay for things even if it was legal to pirate.

Also, concerning copyrights, I don't believe they should exist at all, in any way. They stifle innovation and place unnecessary restrictions on our actions, in my opinion.
Quote from: "terranus"The reason internet sharing is mostly considered "wrong" and illegal is because sharing violates core principles of greedy capitalism. In a true Communist state, internet sharing would never be challenged as an illegal or immoral practice. It wouldn't even be a controversial issue at all. Why do you think internet "piracy" is so much higher in countries like China?
In a true libertarian state, it wouldn't be considered controversial either. So we're even.

LegendarySandwich


Whitney

Without copyrights how would you keep someone from opening up a business in the neighboring town using your name, your logo, your business model, your menu etc?  How would anyone who works with material that is typically copyrighted be able to keep a roof over their heads?  It would kill the arts.

Throwing out copyrights would only be okay if we lived in a utopian communist society where everyone gets an equal cut...unfortunately communism doesn't work in practice.

LegendarySandwich

Quote from: "Whitney"Without copyrights how would you keep someone from opening up a business in the neighboring town using your name, your logo, your business model, your menu etc?
It wouldn't. That's the point. Making it illegal for people to do things like that stifles innovation.
QuoteHow would anyone who works with material that is typically copyrighted be able to keep a roof over their heads?  It would kill the arts.
No, it wouldn't. Businesses largely work by taking others' ideas and, hopefully, improving on them. If we eliminated copyright laws, businesses could do this faster and better, producing more innovation and better products.

Of course, I'm not really educated in how business works, or marketing, or anything. This is just what I've observed over the years, and my thoughts.

QuoteThrowing out copyrights would only be okay if we lived in a utopian communist society where everyone gets an equal cut...unfortunately communism doesn't work in practice.
I'm advocating the opposite of communism.

Ultima22689

Quote from: "Whitney"Without copyrights how would you keep someone from opening up a business in the neighboring town using your name, your logo, your business model, your menu etc?  How would anyone who works with material that is typically copyrighted be able to keep a roof over their heads?  It would kill the arts.

Throwing out copyrights would only be okay if we lived in a utopian communist society where everyone gets an equal cut...unfortunately communism doesn't work in practice.

The internet and the real world are not the same. Copyright was made before the internet existed and this did not plan for the internet. Copyright just stifles the internet, it works in the real world but not online.

Whitney

Quote from: "Ultima22689"Copyright just stifles the internet, it works in the real world but not online.

I'm really just not seeing how there is a difference...the internet is simply another tool for distribution and communication.

What's the difference between a movie being transported to your home via DVD than it being transported to your home via internet.  Why should it be illegal to distribute content off a DVD without permission of the copyright owner but not illegal to distribute the same data over the internet without permission?

What about copyrighted material existing prevents the free exchange of ideas any more than it does in the "real world" and what about the internet entitles it to supersede established law?

LegendarySandwich

Quote from: "Whitney"
Quote from: "Ultima22689"Copyright just stifles the internet, it works in the real world but not online.

I'm really just not seeing how there is a difference...the internet is simply another tool for distribution and communication.
Wrong. It is something like we have never had before. It allows everyone to communicate with everyone else, no matter where they are, and share information. Restricting this flow of information is bad.

QuoteWhat's the difference between a movie being transported to your home via DVD than it being transported to your home via internet.  Why should it be illegal to distribute content off a DVD without permission of the copyright owner but not illegal to distribute the same data over the internet without permission?
Refer to my four points in the original post.

QuoteWhat about copyrighted material existing prevents the free exchange of ideas any more than it does in the "real world" and what about the internet entitles it to supersede established law?
While there may not be many real-world examples of copyrights restricting the free exchange of ideas on the Internet, I don't like the Government controlling what we can say, do, or share. It's a slippery slope. It also violates my ideal of free sharing.

Like I said previously, you can't just apply old laws and business models to something completely new and unprecedented like the Internet and expect it to work. It doesn't.

Ultima22689

Quote from: "Whitney"
Quote from: "Ultima22689"Copyright just stifles the internet, it works in the real world but not online.

I'm really just not seeing how there is a difference...the internet is simply another tool for distribution and communication.

What's the difference between a movie being transported to your home via DVD than it being transported to your home via internet.  Why should it be illegal to distribute content off a DVD without permission of the copyright owner but not illegal to distribute the same data over the internet without permission?

What about copyrighted material existing prevents the free exchange of ideas any more than it does in the "real world" and what about the internet entitles it to supersede established law?

I'm not making a profit off it, that's what.  When they go after people for piracy, it's not the guy in his room streaming some movie, it's the guy burning copies of DVDs and selling them like hotcakes, copyrights aren't some moral thing, it's to keep people from losing out on money made from their product, sharing things on the internet isn't about money because no one profits, to hamper the internet with copyrights is to stifle a flow of information like never before, the whole of human history is a google away. You want to ruin that by copyrighting everything?

Whitney

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Wrong. It is something like we have never had before. It allows everyone to communicate with everyone else, no matter where they are, and share information.
We could do that with the telephone...only difference is the internet can carry more than just voice data.

QuoteRefer to my four points in the original post.
um..I have...I didn't think they made a very good case.

QuoteWhile there may not be many real-world examples of copyrights restricting the free exchange of ideas on the Internet, I don't like the Government controlling what we can say, do, or share. It's a slippery slope. It also violates my ideal of free sharing.
And taking away the ability to copyright violates my ideal of an artists being fairly confident that someone else won't take their work and present it as their own.  Plus if there aren't any real world examples of copyrights causing a kink in the free sharing of ideas what's the problem?

QuoteLike I said previously, you can't just apply old laws and business models to something completely new and unprecedented like the Internet and expect it to work. It doesn't.
Other than people ignoring the law and it not fitting your ideal for how the internet should be run...how is it not working?

Whitney

I still lack seeing the difference between watching a cd burned without permission and streaming them without permission...in both cases the owner loses money they would have otherwise gotten had the person watching the moved rented or bought it instead.  Not all movie producers are rich either, even the small movies cost money to make and they just hope they can get it back in sales.

Quote from: "Ultima22689"You want to ruin that by copyrighting everything?

I never said we should copyright everything...

terranus

OFFTOPIC:
QuoteThrowing out copyrights would only be okay if we lived in a utopian communist society where everyone gets an equal cut...unfortunately communism doesn't work in practice.

It would work if humans were perfect, incorruptible beings. Unfortunately, we are not perfect - one of the few things the theists got right - and communism is one of those systems that needs to be adminstrated perfectly if it is to run properly.


ONTOPIC:
Quote from: "Ultima22689"I'm not making a profit off it, that's what.  When they go after people for piracy, it's not the guy in his room streaming some movie, it's the guy burning copies of DVDs and selling them like hotcakes, copyrights aren't some moral thing, it's to keep people from losing out on money made from their product, sharing things on the internet isn't about money because no one profits, to hamper the internet with copyrights is to stifle a flow of information like never before, the whole of human history is a google away. You want to ruin that by copyrighting everything?

That is a very good point. The internet isn't some unconquered, foreign land we're talking about here. Its really almost a whole other reality. It's absurd to think that the same rules which exist in the physical world can be transferred over to the virtual world without any significant problems.
Trovas Veron!
--terranus | http://terranus.org--

LegendarySandwich

Quote from: "Whitney"
Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Wrong. It is something like we have never had before. It allows everyone to communicate with everyone else, no matter where they are, and share information.
We could do that with the telephone...only difference is the internet can carry more than just voice data.
And you can do it on a scope magnitudes larger than anyone could dream to do with just a simple telephone.

Quote
QuoteRefer to my four points in the original post.
um..I have...I didn't think they made a very good case.
Well, I don't think you've made a very good case against them.

Quote
QuoteWhile there may not be many real-world examples of copyrights restricting the free exchange of ideas on the Internet, I don't like the Government controlling what we can say, do, or share. It's a slippery slope. It also violates my ideal of free sharing.
And taking away the ability to copyright violates my ideal of an artists being fairly confident that someone else won't take their work and present it as their own.
With the Internet, that's less likely.

QuotePlus if there aren't any real world examples of copyrights causing a kink in the free sharing of ideas what's the problem?
There probably are, I just don't have any; so I can't use it as an argument.

Quote
QuoteLike I said previously, you can't just apply old laws and business models to something completely new and unprecedented like the Internet and expect it to work. It doesn't.
Other than people ignoring the law and it not fitting your ideal for how the internet should be run...how is it not working?
How is it working in any way? It doesn't stop (many) people from doing it, and almost nobody gets caught, ever. It's just wasted government money. Kind of like the War on Drugs.

Quote from: "Whitney"I still lack seeing the difference between watching a cd burned without permission and streaming them without permission...in both cases the owner loses money they would have otherwise gotten had the person watching the moved rented or bought it instead.
Saying that pirating = loss of sales is way too simplified of a view. In a lot of cases, the pirate wouldn't have bought the item if he hadn't pirated it.

QuoteNot all movie producers are rich either, even the small movies cost money to make and they just hope they can get it back in sales.
And having copyrights will fix this?

Quote from: "terranus"That is a very good point. The internet isn't some unconquered, foreign land we're talking about here. Its really almost a whole other reality. It's absurd to think that the same rules which exist in the physical world can be transferred over to the virtual world without any significant problems.
Yes, exactly. We must move on. We must progress. We can't cling on to old rules and business models. THEY. DON'T. WORK.