Why Did God Have to Make Evil?

[Davin]

This logic does not necessarily follow:
Having no evil doesn't necessarily lead to no purpose for society, no purpose for society doesn't necessarily lead to no society.
Even if the only purpose of society is to remove evil, if there is no evil to remove then society would be useless.
The lack of society doesn't lead to chaos in itself. There could be a chaotic society even, like an anarchistic commune.
Chaos doesn't lead to evil, just as order doesn't prevent evil. Chaos doesn't even lead to bad things in itself.

Okay, then tell me, what is the purpose of society?

Ideally I see society as a means to maintain as many people's pursuits of happiness as possible. So the purpose of society is to fulfill the most amount of peoples purpose or in the very least not get in the way of the peoples purposes. Reality however has many more versions of societies, most of which create a lot of suffering, especially societies based off of the rules of a religion.

What is your purpose of life?

I have none.

You want to enjoy life, then where does enjoyment come from?

I want to not be bored. I enjoy humor, video games, some discussions, programming, drawing, music (making baby musics as well as listening to music), 3D modeling/rendering, some story writing, occassionaly reading a book (I don't like reading, but I do often like the knowledge gained from it), and walking.

Last time you told me you don't have a conscience, I'm very curious to this.

If a conscience is something that makes one feel bad for doing or not doing something, then I do not have such a thing.

Because I understand by now that you reject the soul, now you reject also conscience.

I reject almost all baseless assertions that have no founding in empirical evidence, a soul is one of those things. I do accept when someone tells me how they feel; if they are lying then they do not wish me to know how they feel and I have no means by which to argue otherwise, if they are telling the truth then I should accept then they want me to know the truth and I have no means to determine otherwise. Because feelings are subjective by nature, I have felt emotions myself and there is no way to verify an emotion that another feels, I just accept what people tell me they feel.

That's quite new, so from what void do you get your morals?

The same place everyone else does: empathy, reasoning and experience.

To answer the question of the thread: If the god is all powerful, then the god doesn't need to do anything, anything the god does and anything that happens/will happen is the intention of the god. So if the god is all powerful, it did not need to create evil, if the god isn't all powerful then it might have needed to create evil.

God is giving us the choice, to be even better people. Because we can choose to do good.
Therefore the concept of evil has too exist. We as human beings interact with one and other.
The choice within this plays a central role.

Have you ever heard of a compassionate MRI-scanner? Or a Merciful dialysis machine?
We could have been programmed to do good, like the MRI-scanner or dialysis machine.

God is already doing it, this life is already the final step.
Our choice plays the central role within this process.

So the god is not all powerful. This isn't really a false dichotomy, either the god has no limits or the god is not all powerful.

So a man with zero scientific knowledge saying something unscientific is evidence for?

You very well know what I mean. In this 'unscientific' sentence the man says that the universe was created and is expanding.

If you think that such a vague verse means what we know of cosmic expansion then I suppose "green fuzzy stuff on bread makes people feel better" is an equivalent of how to get anti-biotics.

Atheist before you Davin, ridiculed the concept by religion that the universe was created.
Their primary reason for atheism was: "How ridiculous is it too say, that such a large universe is created."

I was not that atheist, if you wish to discuss what that person said to you, then go and have a discussion with that person, it's useless to discuss it with me.

Religion has won on that, after 3000 years of discussion, science finally admitted that the universe did have a starting point.

3000 years of discussion that has produced how much evidence? Yet how long since Newton and we have evidence for a "Big Bang"? If we stuck with religions "knowledge" how many diseases would have been cured? How many would be starving? Would you even be able to argue your point over the internet? None, about 200 years, none, almost all and no, respectively.

(Qur'an adds that the universe is expanding, and life on earth is made of water, look at the cell cytoplasma)

What about all the other stuff living things are made of?

You cannot ask for more proof, the only next proof you'll get will be after death.

I can ask for more proof all I want and I do. Just like I ask for sufficient evidence for everything else I accept as true. Your religion, Christianity, Budhism... etc. are not any more special than any other concept, the only difference is that all you theists have no reason to posite a god in the first place.

You just believe that somehow the universe popped out of nowhere, started expanding, add some time and a bit of chance, voila! Life!.

I've asked you this once already: do not put words into my mouth. If you just wanted to assume what I think, then you don't even need to come to a forum to do so, you can have that argument in a notepad.

But did an intelligent Mind do this? "Ridiculous!!".
Homo Sapien has been around for over 100.000 years on this planet, and somehow by an unknown reason in the last 30 years, people are leaving
religion on a massive scale. It's almost a 'cool' thing to do now, to be an atheist.

But that makes it not a hipster thing. If being an atheist is now the cool thing to do, then being religious must be the hipster thing to do. Religious in the most obscure religion, because I'm a hipster, I'm now religious in the Cult of Subatomic Robots. You've never heard of it.

Davin, do you know why you are obsessed with science?

I would not say that I'm obsessed with science, but I do know why I like it:
My job that is not very boring is based around things that came about through scientific discovery.
Video games are based around things that would not have been possible without scientific discovery.
Watching and listening to comedians would nothave been as possible without scientific discovery.
Sounding all arrogant (like I tend to do), on internet forums wouldn't be possible without scientific discovery.
Sanitation systems would not have been possible without scientific discovery.
Now that science is curing diseases, spraying new skin on people, growing organs for transplanting and curing blindness... I don't see why anyone would be against it.

[iSok]

Society has no common purpose. Some people join a specific society for companionship or a sense of belonging, some people are forced into a society and cannot leave regarless of their desire to do so. Some people simply find themselves a part of a society because the governing body finds it a practical solution to managing/controlling people and attaining funds (taxes) for common infrastructure (roads, schools).

1. Life  -->  2. Education by society --> 3. Contribution to society --> 4. Retirement --> 5. Death

Step 3, is by far the step which we spend most time on.
from age 16/26 till age 60+ usually.
What happens during this stage? We contribute to society, to become better than before.
To defeat 'evil'.

I have no belief in Good and Evil. This thinking is the seed of war.

The seed of war is the love for the world.
Countries invading other countries for the sake of oil or just to make up excuses.
This boy died, received a bullet, so we can spend more on weapons in order to boost the economy.
We don't really mind whether our economy runs on blood, we don't believe in evil.
NTSFW (images of dead boy and soldier) http://i53.tinypic.com/makpzc.jpg
This boy was probably a terrorist, well done.

No, science does not agree. Science has no idea what happened before the Big Bang, Science does not rule out that there are many Big Bang events within Space. To assume our Universe within Space is the only one is somewhat egotistical and arrogant of human kind.

Science does say that the universe had a starting point, something that has been denied for a very long time.
Yes, the theory of the multiversum, the last resort.

We have no idea how all this energy and matter came to exist, potentially quantum fluctuations. We have no idea how life started. We try to keep an open mind and not make assumptions as to imagining up a god creature and then telling everyone that this is the answer and the truth.

Really? I was quite shocked that some people here on age 11 became an atheist, because somehow they understood evolution at the age of 11.
Seeing evolution as a primary reason for disbelief in a Higher Intelligence is just ridiculous in my opinion.

If somehow every scientist became a religious devout. Are you going to tell me that no one here on this forum would question his point of view?
The truth is, that if the intelligent people qould change their ways, atheism would be in trouble.
Because how can an 11 year old decide about the most important question in his life, at that age?
Atheism really is something 'cool'.
Somehow the term presents that you must have thought a lot about life and God and in the end you came to the conclusion that God doesn't exist.
So atheism stands for intelligence.....

I see three revelations from God.

1. The Universe
2. Man
3. Religions

In order for me to become an atheist, I'll have to do the following.

1. Universe popped out of nowhere, just out of nothing.
2. Somehow every parameter was set right by coincidence.
3. The Earth came at the right place and the right time.
4. Life popped out of nowhere.
5. Life decided to 'grow', somehow the signal to desire a longer life and to give offspring came into existence just out of coincidence.
6. A lot of coincidence happened and man came into existence.
7. All religions are somehow man-made.
8. The greatest people ever that have walked on the face of this planet that in some cultures are worshipped like God's, were actually deceivers.
9. The proves that are given by some religions are just coincidence.
10. Sincere people that had certain experiences within my environment, that cannot be explained are liars or are confused.

For what?
To listen to the waffeling of militant people like Harris, Dawkins or Hitchens.
Hitchens that supports the war in Iraq, with his huge ego, never will he admit that he is wrong.

Or Peter Atkins: "What's wrong with being arrogant if you are right?"
The day that I might accept this, I'll be in a mental hospital probably.

No Stevil, I see an unshakable steady picture that cannot be touched. I don't believe in God anymore thanks to this forum, I know that God exists.
And that He brought multiple religions into the world. Take a good look at the Axial age, religions were booming all over the world.
The core of these religions were all the same.

Then came monotheism, Islam fulfilled the final message for mankind.
Take a good look at the location and also the civilization in which Monotheism came.
It was given to the most retarted society of that time, located in the most central part of the world, connections with Africa, Asia and Europe.
Within 30 years the most retarted society in the world, became the beacon of light for the entire world.

[fester30]

But did an intelligent Mind do this? "Ridiculous!!".
Homo Sapien has been around for over 100.000 years on this planet, and somehow by an unknown reason in the last 30 years, people are leaving
religion on a massive scale. It's almost a 'cool' thing to do now, to be an atheist.

Over 100,000 years, and when does God choose to reveal himself to man?  For Abraham, a few thousand years ago.  For the gospel-writers of the New Testament, 2000 years ago, and for Muhammad, 1500 years ago.  For man, probably about 12000 years ago, according to the earliest known temple found (recently in Turkey).  Where was God all those tens of thousands of years?  All those people who came before man learned to write must have been lost without a chance to get into heaven or have their 72 virgins, or whatever any religion believes about the afterlife.  How terribly cruel of God not to reveal himself to them and grace them with his word!  I thought I didn't like God before, but now I like him even less.  Thanks a lot iSok!

[iSok]

But did an intelligent Mind do this? "Ridiculous!!".
Homo Sapien has been around for over 100.000 years on this planet, and somehow by an unknown reason in the last 30 years, people are leaving
religion on a massive scale. It's almost a 'cool' thing to do now, to be an atheist.

Over 100,000 years, and when does God choose to reveal himself to man?  For Abraham, a few thousand years ago.  For the gospel-writers of the New Testament, 2000 years ago, and for Muhammad, 1500 years ago.  For man, probably about 12000 years ago, according to the earliest known temple found (recently in Turkey).  Where was God all those tens of thousands of years?  All those people who came before man learned to write must have been lost without a chance to get into heaven or have their 72 virgins, or whatever any religion believes about the afterlife.  How terribly cruel of God not to reveal himself to them and grace them with his word!  I thought I didn't like God before, but now I like him even less.  Thanks a lot iSok!

Islam, Christianity, Judaism was not the first time God revealed Himself to mankind.

[Whitney]

I didn't read the whole post because I don't care about what the quran says...but:

Open minded!

congratulations on earning a warning for being uncivil.  Would you like for me to start actually enforcing the no preaching rule too?  It would require I actually read through all your posts but now worries for me since I know you'd be gone in less than a day if I enforced that rule in respect to your posts.

btw, don't post pictures of dead people on the forum...all content must be safe for work.

[iSok]

I'll end this topic here, before I'll get banned.

[Stevil]

In order for me to become an atheist, I'll have to do the following.

1. Universe popped out of nowhere, just out of nothing.
2. Somehow every parameter was set right by coincidence.
3. The Earth came at the right place and the right time.
4. Life popped out of nowhere.
5. Life decided to 'grow', somehow the signal to desire a longer life and to give offspring came into existence just out of coincidence.
6. A lot of coincidence happened and man came into existence.
7. All religions are somehow man-made.
8. The greatest people ever that have walked on the face of this planet that in some cultures are worshipped like God's, were actually deceivers.
9. The proves that are given by some religions are just coincidence.
10. Sincere people that had certain experiences within my environment, that cannot be explained are liars or are confused.

I am not trying to convert you but these are good conditions that you have listed so I thought I would answer how I address them for myself.
1. Don't know where the energy/matter in the Universe came from?
2. Not sure what you mean by parameter, but reality is what reality is, if any parameters were different and existence were possible then we would have a different reality but would assume that it is the only reality. Not knowing the anser does not lead to the assumption of a god.
3. There are 8 planets around the Sun, there are 200 - 400 Billion stars in the Milky Way, There are approximately 170 billion Galaxies in our expanding Universe. Try not to get hung up on the probability of our earth. Think about the probability of an earth like planet
4. It seems that life is enevitable, if possible it will happen. Again, I make no assumptions as to how when I don't know the answer
5. It seems that life evolves from small, less complex to larger more complex over time
6. We developed an intelligence and gave our kind a name "Mankind" "Humans". I fail to see the issue.
7. People tend to make things and copy of each other. All national flags are somehow manmade, all national anthems are somehow manmade...
8. Depends how you define great people. Many people are deceivers. Some people are great. some people are fictional.
9. Religions often borrow ideas from each other
10. People have experiences that they cannot explain or fully understand. The mind is complex and affected by many things.