Exhaustion

[Gawen]

No one has abandoned reason here.

Except the atheist.

Yeah...

Three kings following a star across the desert to bring presents to a god-man baby (who was immaculately concepted and had no father) whom they dreamed about is all about reason.

[AnimatedDirt]

It seems absurd an atheist would even partake of gatherings with family celebrating an absurd idea(s) and/or beliefs. You walked in to it. What else do you expect? It seems plain and painfully ignorant and deluded on your part is what you must do from here on out if you are at your wits end in these battles with your family. Why keep going at all? Make your statement of unbelief in your absence.

So don't go to gatherings of stalwart Christians.

What would you have me do as my family celebrates Christmas with abundant food, wine and joviality? Sit in my basement with a one-antlered dog?  :bananacolor:

If you agree they are fools, what reason do you have in respecting them at all?  I'm simply not understanding your stand here when it flies in the face of your apparent convictions.  Why even 'give in' to celebrating a made for Christ holiday?  Why not leave these "uneducated" religious fools to their folly, as you seem to agree?

[DJAkuma]

I've got religious folks in the family too, my girlfriends parents are mormon and my sister's mother in law is a preachy born-again christian. When those conversations come up I steer the conversation away as best I can toward other topics. When someone willfully abandons logic and reason and is unwilling to learn you're not going to change their mind with logic, reason, or facts.

[dgmort19]

If you agree they are fools, what reason do you have in respecting them at all? I'm simply not understanding your stand here when it flies in the face of your apparent convictions. Why even 'give in' to celebrating a made for Christ holiday? Why not leave these "uneducated" religious fools to their folly, as you seem to agree?

Because they are my family, and I love them (most of them). Plus, free food and gifts.

[Whitney]

Why even 'give in' to celebrating a made for Christ holiday?  Why not leave these "uneducated" religious fools to their folly, as you seem to agree?

If I had family like in the OP I would just skip over the holiday...but for many of us it's just another holiday with religious origins that creates an excuse to get together with friends and family for some good food when most are off work.

[Sophus]

Your logic is circular. You criticise us because we side with faith, which in your eyes is oppositional to reason. Yet at the same time, you must invariably have faith that your faculty of reason reflects reality accurately.

The irony is you're trying to give a reason for abandoning reason. Your logic circular. Reason is inescapable when it comes to justifying ideas and concepts. Once you convince me to abandon reason I'll have no reason to believe that's reasonable anymore.

No one has abandoned reason here.

Except the atheist.

Oh... you're just a troll.  

[Achronos]

No one has abandoned reason here.

Except the atheist.

Yeah...

Three kings following a star across the desert to bring presents to a god-man baby (who was immaculately concepted and had no father) whom they dreamed about is all about reason.

Three Zoroastrian priests, clergy of a religion that had no links to the OT, but which did predict the birth of a savior in a cave, and who did place great store by studying the stars. Three gifts were given on account of Christ's kingship, priesthood, and suffering.

[Achronos]

I'd say this right here is abandoning reason: Even if this is the case, and I don't concede that it is, I would still choose to believe in God. Belief in God provides that flicker of hope in this dark dark world. And what else matters in the end, if not hope??

You seem to have painted yourself into a corner here. Faith in the Orthodox Church is participatory...it requires my agreement, my cooperation, and my actions. Reason does not require any such thing. In your world, what happens will happen regardless of my belief. The ultimate conclusion is that we are all dead. So if I choose faith AND reason, even where faith seemingly lacks evidence in your eyes, this has no bearing on what happens in the end. No harm is done by me embracing faith. In a world which lacks a supreme moral arbiter, on no grounds can you declare what is right or wrong to any degree of certainty, including even faith. So why not just let us be?

[Sophus]

Your logic is circular. You criticise us because we side with faith, which in your eyes is oppositional to reason. Yet at the same time, you must invariably have faith that your faculty of reason reflects reality accurately. How do you know that you are not in a Matrix of sorts? How do you know that reality is not an illusion etc?

Another candidate for the patented Yahzi Baseball Bat test...

 Thought I'd quote that here in case others don't know what you're talking about:

If you can't trust your senses, it's time to bring out the Yahzi Baseball Bat test (TM)
Step 1. Obtain a baseball bat.
Step 2. Strike yourself in the head.
Step 3. Repeat step 2 until all doubts about the reality of physical existence are driven out.

[AnimatedDirt]

If you agree they are fools, what reason do you have in respecting them at all? I'm simply not understanding your stand here when it flies in the face of your apparent convictions. Why even 'give in' to celebrating a made for Christ holiday? Why not leave these "uneducated" religious fools to their folly, as you seem to agree?

Because they are my family, and I love them (most of them). Plus, free food and gifts.

So let me understand... They are fools, but because they are your "family", you "love" them and want to spend time with them and partake of the fruits of their foolish labor, YET...you ridicule them and their foolish "leader" (didn't someone call Him a lunatic?) in a dedicated time to this lunatic?  One must ask if you really believe what you promote, or is it of convenience and fun only.

I totally get that they are your family, but their REASON for meeting is not logical.  The whole point is an illogical reason and to play along is to empower this rediculous season.  Wouldn't it do the world better if all atheists decided to actually live their beliefs?

If Christ is a lunatic, He did claim to be the Almighty God, then anything to do with Him is utterly illogical to even participate in.  It would be like me getting together with my family to celebrate the yearly cooking of the Great Spaghetti Monster's new hairdoo and then getting angry because I don't believe in the GSM...I wouldn't go.  It's something best left to the fools that believe in a GSM...right?
But you're here saying, "Woe is me..."??  If your life and beliefs are far superior in intellect, reason and logic to the fool's life and practice(s), why lower yourself to their level?

[Davin]

So why not just let us be?

Says the person coming to an atheist forum and saying:

No one has abandoned reason here.

Except the atheist.

I leave theists alone all the time, I hardly even bring up religion and I don't really care too much if a person is a theist. Theists tend to bring up religion to me, or to the public like in this forum, so I respond. Now if I came to a theistic forum that you frequent, and brought up atheism and proceeded to argue for atheism, then you'd have reasonable justification to ask "So why not just let us be?" However you came here, you brought up religion and you argued for religion... asking now "So why not just let us be?" is completely backwards.

[Inevitable Droid]

If your life and beliefs are far superior in intellect, reason and logic to the fool's life and practice(s), why lower yourself to their level?

Because they're family.  That answer would suffice if you weren't trying to make some point about hypocrisy.  Common sense accepts that family ties are strong enough to endure and valuable enough to retain despite philosophical disagreement.  Common sense also accepts that philosophical disagreement needn't be a cause for conflict at any time, between anyone.  Common sense, finally, accepts that all action is best aimed at survival, success, and happiness, and if airing one's philosophical contentions would serve none of those and in fact would undermine one of those, then airing one's philosphical contentions would betray a lack of common sense.

[LegendarySandwich]

If you agree they are fools, what reason do you have in respecting them at all? I'm simply not understanding your stand here when it flies in the face of your apparent convictions. Why even 'give in' to celebrating a made for Christ holiday? Why not leave these "uneducated" religious fools to their folly, as you seem to agree?

Because they are my family, and I love them (most of them). Plus, free food and gifts.

So let me understand... They are fools, but because they are your "family", you "love" them and want to spend time with them and partake of the fruits of their foolish labor, YET...you ridicule them and their foolish "leader" (didn't someone call Him a lunatic?) in a dedicated time to this lunatic?  One must ask if you really believe what you promote, or is it of convenience and fun only.

I totally get that they are your family, but their REASON for meeting is not logical.  The whole point is an illogical reason and to play along is to empower this rediculous season.  Wouldn't it do the world better if all atheists decided to actually live their beliefs?

If Christ is a lunatic, He did claim to be the Almighty God, then anything to do with Him is utterly illogical to even participate in.  It would be like me getting together with my family to celebrate the yearly cooking of the Great Spaghetti Monster's new hairdoo and then getting angry because I don't believe in the GSM...I wouldn't go.  It's something best left to the fools that believe in a GSM...right?
But you're here saying, "Woe is me..."??  If your life and beliefs are far superior in intellect, reason and logic to the fool's life and practice(s), why lower yourself to their level?

Stop trying to make us look like hypocrites, because it's not working and you're looking like a damn fool.

[AnimatedDirt]

If your life and beliefs are far superior in intellect, reason and logic to the fool's life and practice(s), why lower yourself to their level?

Because they're family.  That answer would suffice if you weren't trying to make some point about hypocrisy.  Common sense accepts that family ties are strong enough to endure and valuable enough to retain despite philosophical disagreement.  Common sense also accepts that philosophical disagreement needn't be a cause for conflict at any time, between anyone.  Common sense, finally, accepts that all action is best aimed at survival, success, and happiness, and if airing one's philosophical contentions would serve none of those and in fact would undermine one of those, then airing one's philosphical contentions would betray a lack of common sense.

Trying to make some point?  I think you made it on your own without my help.  The point is not that they are family, but the REASON these fools are gathering.  Hypocrisy is part of it, but it's not my point.

You, in another thread I just was reading in wanting figure out what 'Apatheist' is, wrote,

Judaism, Christianity, Islam - toward them, I'm hard atheist. Those frameworks I claim as false. They're utter nonsense.

If this is true, then to consort with nonsense makes no sense regardless of it being family.  Love, therefore, is a cause to do or believe ideas that are illogical and nonsense.  More so, one might say you're holding back the human species by not distancing yourself from this less intelligent group.  To me, it is hypocrisy...however to all of a sudden say, "AHHH-Ha!  You're a hypocrite!" is useless because I think you already understand and agree.

The point is the OP is, in my opinion, whining about having to deal with questions and arguments when he/she CHOOSES to put him or herself in the situation that logic and reason tell him/her to avoid.  What then, is of more value, his/her beliefs or family and love?  If it's family and love, then there is no reason, logically, to whine and/or complain about a situation in which the path is already known.  So the OP has already made known that love and family supercede logic, facts and reason.  If you think about it, that's not the logical thing to do.  If Atheism is all about logic, facts and reason, why do Atheists continue to not live according to their creed?  It makes no sense to me, none whatsoever.  To go against facts, logic, and reason is great when in a situation of life and death...but simply to suffer JUST TO visit with lunatic family???

Stop trying to make us look like hypocrites, because it's not working and you're looking like a damn fool.

Not my point

[Davin]

[...]But you're here saying, "Woe is me..."??  If your life and beliefs are far superior in intellect, reason and logic to the fool's life and practice(s), why lower yourself to their level?

I'm in a very similar situation so I think I can address this on topic like. My parents are very smart people, very knowledgeable and very Christian. I was a Christian. I'm pretty sure my intelligence didn't change during my mental transformation from Christian to atheist. If I thought that I was more intelligent than religious people just because I'm an atheist, then I'd have to take the stance that I'm now more intelligent than I was when I was a Christian. However I think there's a much more simplistic explanation; it's just that the order of things and the things themselves that are important to me aren't the same things and order that are important to my parents.

The other thing is that there is some benefit from meeting with family a few times a year almost no matter what the reason is (yes even a funeral for a family reunion is beneficial), it would be nice to have the benefit of meeting up with family without the attempts of them converting me. However to me, the benefits of reuniting with my family outweigh the negatives of them occasionally attempting to convert me. It's in an odd way comforting that they care for me and show it by trying to save my eternal soul in the only way they believe will save it. The problem isn't that it makes me directly uncomfortable, it's that it always makes my family uncomfortable and I get uncomfortable because they are.