if there were no need for 'engineers from the quantum plenum' then we should not have any unanswered scientific questions.
Started by LegendarySandwich, November 28, 2010, 02:07:44 AM
Quote from: "Will"The data is there and it's unquestionable: torture absolutely, positively does not work. Under no circumstances, ticking time bomb or not, is torture a viable method for retrieving reliable or even quasi-reliable information from a subject.
Quote from: "Wilson"Will: If a torturee would do or say anything to make it stop, wouldn't he tell the truth, if he knew it?
Quote from: "Wilson"Davin, you don't seem to have much common sense. This back and forth is worthless. Over and out.
Quote from: "Will"Quote from: "Wilson"Will: If a torturee would do or say anything to make it stop, wouldn't he tell the truth, if he knew it?The tortured will say what he (or she) thinks the torturer/interrogator wants. Whether it's the truth or not can't be discerned because of the methods. All you're doing is relying on the tortured person's interpretation of what the interrogator thinks, which obviously is not reliable enough to risk lives over. If it's the truth, it might as well be accidental truth.
Quote from: "Wilson"In general I agree with that, but you're avoiding the question. In a situation where there is specific information we need, such as the hypothetical situation I posed - the location of the bomb - isn't it logical that torture might yield that information?
Quote from: "Wilson"I guess it's more common than I realized for people, even on sites such as this where participants tend to be bright and thoughtful, to go into hunker down mode when arguing a point. Me, I like to concede valid points that my opponent hits me with. Intellectual honesty is the way to go if we're going to figure some of this complicated stuff out.
Quotethe advocacy of a position which the advocate knows or believes to be false or misleading
Quotethe advocacy of a position which the advocate does not know to be true, and has not performed rigorous due diligence to ensure the truthfulness of the position
Quote from: "Wilson"Hard data? I'm not a student of torture science. My guess is that there have been many such incidents, but I have no direct knowledge, and no desire to spend time searching for them.
Quotethe conscious omission of aspects of the truth known or believed to be relevant in the particular context.
Quote from: "Davin"For evidence, look up Michael Koubi the former chief interrogator for Israel's General Security Services when you have time. This is a man who has decades of experience extracting information and has no qualms against abusing prisoners. Yet because his goal is to get information, he doesn't need to use extreme physical and psychological torture on suspects to get that information from them. For most of the people he interrogated, there is no permanent physical or psychological damage, but is still very effective to get information.
QuoteIntellectual dishonesty is the advocacy of a position known to be false. An argument which is misused to advance an agenda or to reinforce one's deeply held beliefs in the face of overwhelming evidence contrary.
Quote from: "Will"First, in 2008, the American Psychological Association, the largest and most respected psychologist association in the world, went so far as to ban any members from being involved directly or indirectly with inhumane or torture situations. The decision was based, among other things, on The Trauma of Psychological Torture a seminal work on the psychological facts about torture.The data is there and it's unquestionable: torture absolutely, positively does not work. Under no circumstances, ticking time bomb or not, is torture a viable method for retrieving reliable or even quasi-reliable information from a subject.
Quote from: "Wilson"Will: If a torturee would do or say anything to make it stop, wouldn't he tell the truth, if he knew it? I suspect that the practical problem with most torture is that the guy doesn't know anything useful, and lies to make it stop. But in the specific situation where the prisoner actually knows the location of a bomb or the name of an associate, don't you think he would give it up? Seems to me that he would, in many cases. As John McCain said, we all have our breaking point. Is it possible that your blanket denial that torture ever works is based more on disgust at the procedure than on logic?
Quote from: "Davin"Because if I'm the one who has to make a choice that may save a million lives, I'm going to rely on things with a much higher success rate that take far less time.
Quote from: "Wilson"You essentially told me that you would prefer sacrificing a million New Yorkers to dirtying your hands by approving torture.
Quote from: "Byronazriel"Torture can be very useful, as a punishment.
Quote from: "Byronazriel"No one thing is totally good, or totally evil. Things are just things, it's the people that are good or evil.
Quote from: "Byronazriel"It pains me to say this...