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Ethical basis for Veganism or Vegetarianism?

Started by bitter_sweet_symphony, November 17, 2007, 10:26:09 AM

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Kona

#30
I would have no problem being vegetarian, as long as there is someone around to cook it all up for me.  Just as easy to go down to Subway and order the veggie sub for lunch, and then hit Taco Bell for the bean burritos.  V-8 is also a great option.  Personally, the most effective weight loss diet I have ever been on is Atkins because the high ketones are effective appetite suppressants (and I think they also make me feel slightly euphoric).  One of the things I noticed with Atkins is that I had to occassionally spike the carbs to get past plateaus when my body became to well adjusted at gluconeogenesis from proteins.  So, one pizza every few weeks worked great and the pounds just kept coming off.  In summary, Atkins good weight loss diet,  South Beach Diet (low glycemic foods) probably a good choice for maintenance.  I don't think eating meat is 'morally' wrong, but I certainly agree with the idea that we could have better conditions for livestock and poultry.  Fish is becoming less attractive as mercury levels increase from continued coal-burning.
Fight Global Warming......Save a Pirate!


freeverse

#31
I'm a vegan, and while I'm not out to convert the world, i strongly suggest that everyone does serious research before making up their mind on the issue. We've been raised to believe that meat is the best, if not only, source of protein and that milk is the best, if only, source of calcium. Both of these statements, IMO, are completely ridiculous. For some reason it never seems to occur to people that the dairy and meat industries have an agenda just like any other business, therefore the information they are giving the public regarding nutrition might be biased.

In a nutshell, I am vegan for environmental, ethical, and nutritional reasons. The research I've done has convinced me that meat and dairy products are harvested with horrific cruelty, in ways that are extremely destructive to the environment and to human health.

Describing all of this in detail would take forever, but if you're serious about being an informed consumer, take a look at The China Study or  Peter Singer's Animal Liberation and The Ethics of What We Eat. The China study is the result of the most comprehensive study of nutrition ever conducted, and the latter two are written by a respected philosopher who articulates reasonable, intelligent, and (IMO) undeniable arguments for ethical behavior when it comes to what we consume.

Like I said earlier, I'm not out to convert everyone to veganism - I hate evangelism with a passion, even if it is for a cause I believe in. But this thread popped up and I am not seeing anyone arguing on the other side of the "but it tastes good" argument.

Really, what is the difference between blindly engaging in a diet because it tastes good and blindly following a religion because it feels good? Just because a lifestyle is easy or comfortable does not make it right, and I would expect that the atheist, of all people, would be committed to that reality.

Anyway, sorry if I rained on the parade  :wink:

McQ

#32
Quote from: "freeverse"I'm a vegan, and while I'm not out to convert the world, i strongly suggest that everyone does serious research before making up their mind on the issue. We've been raised to believe that meat is the best, if not only, source of protein and that milk is the best, if only, source of calcium. Both of these statements, IMO, are completely ridiculous. For some reason it never seems to occur to people that the dairy and meat industries have an agenda just like any other business, therefore the information they are giving the public regarding nutrition might be biased.

In a nutshell, I am vegan for environmental, ethical, and nutritional reasons. The research I've done has convinced me that meat and dairy products are harvested with horrific cruelty, in ways that are extremely destructive to the environment and to human health.

Describing all of this in detail would take forever, but if you're serious about being an informed consumer, take a look at The China Study or  Peter Singer's Animal Liberation and The Ethics of What We Eat. The China study is the result of the most comprehensive study of nutrition ever conducted, and the latter two are written by a respected philosopher who articulates reasonable, intelligent, and (IMO) undeniable arguments for ethical behavior when it comes to what we consume.

Like I said earlier, I'm not out to convert everyone to veganism - I hate evangelism with a passion, even if it is for a cause I believe in. But this thread popped up and I am not seeing anyone arguing on the other side of the "but it tastes good" argument.

Really, what is the difference between blindly engaging in a diet because it tastes good and blindly following a religion because it feels good? Just because a lifestyle is easy or comfortable does not make it right, and I would expect that the atheist, of all people, would be committed to that reality.

Anyway, sorry if I rained on the parade  :wink:

Thanks for providing the vegan info.

While I understand all of your reasons, and commend you for your position, it still tastes good, therefore the cow must die.   :wink:

Joking aside, I do appreciate the "links" to the information.
Elvis didn't do no drugs!
--Penn Jillette

freeverse

#33
no problem  :)

Kona

#34
I think most people would be more amenable to vegetarianism if it didn't seem so 'extreme'.   I grew up omnivorous and have never seriously considered life without meat.  It isn't really part of the public education and we all know that those lifetime habits start when we are young.  I think most people look at it like it would be so hard to make the transition and would require a lot more prep time--a perception that is hard to overcome.  Beyond that it makes perfect sense, but most vegetarian products I have seen cost significantly more than their meat-based counterparts.  I don't know what he price of a bell pepper is these days on the mainland, but  out here you pay about $6.00/lb.
Fight Global Warming......Save a Pirate!


Whitney

#35
Quote from: "Kona"I don't know what he price of a bell pepper is these days on the mainland, but  out here you pay about $6.00/lb.

I think they are one or two dollars each; I don't think I've ever seen them priced by the pound around here.  Anyway, they aren't the cheapest veggie choice.

I've actually eaten all vegetarian for lunch this past week, just by chance, not a concious decicion to use only veggies.  They were also fairly inexpensive lunches....I just had spinach, tomatoes, blueberries (on sale), cucumbers, and veggie burgers made from a middle east based dried mix (Falhala sp?...$2 for a box which is about 12 large servings worth).  The only non vegan stuff in my lunch was the yougurt I used to make a healthy dressing and the pita bread.  Dinner tonight was vegitarian too (not vegan)  Spinach fettichini with baby bella mushrooms sauted in milk and sauce made from mushroom juice mixed with cream cheese and sour cream....fed two people with leftovers for about $10.

Eating completely vegan, however, can get a little expensive if you don't know how to cook well without milk products...I use milk products quite often so I have found following a vegan diet to be very difficult (read: impossible).  If I was that concerned about eating vegan I'd have to take some cooking classes.

Kona

#36
QuoteIf I was that concerned about eating vegan I'd have to take some cooking classes.


Agreed.  I think that is the key.  And the best way to entice me into a vegetarian cooking class is beer and babes!  I would love to see a PETA commercial with a spokes model like Gisele Bündchen or Heidi Klum wearing only an apron with a Heineken in one hand and a zucchini in the other!   :cheers:
Fight Global Warming......Save a Pirate!


Bella

#37
I generally eat vegetarian. I guess I couldn't tell you why exactly. I mean, I'll go out for sushi with my friends and if I go to a BBQ and a hot dog is my only option, I'll eat it. Oh, and if someone waves crisp bacon under my nose, it's gone (along with their fingers). It's not a big deal to me. My sister and best friend are vegetarian's because they think that eating meat is gross. To each their own, I guess. Besides, someone has to go out and kill the innocent Boca's for my Boca burger. :)

susangail

#38
I was a vegetarian and then a vegan, but mainly because of health reasons (and the fact that I'm lactose intolerant) Now I just eat whatever I want (the reasons behind this are rather complicated). I think vegetarianism is great for those who can manage it. Personally, I love animals, but I think humans are omnivorous.
When life gives you lemons, make orange juice and let the world wonder how you did it.

ShimShamSam

#39
It sure says something about evolution that it can craft a creature smart enough to go against it's own natural diet and actually selectively choose what types of foods it'll eat. Humans eat both plants and meat, but as animals we can choose what to eat, fascinating. However, I view myself as just another part of the food chain, up near the top I might add. And I'm from Maine, so my family hunts. And I eat deer and moose, and it is so much better than beef, you don't even know (if you've never had it). But I'm not going to start up a debate about the morals of being a predator.

janafeir

I have been a vegetarian and off and on a vegan for over 20 years now. I am not activist I did not conciously choose this. It was about after three months I realized I hadn't eaten any meat or animal by products. So I just kept going. I come from a family of meat and potato eaters. When we had family gatherings I would be placed down at the far end of the table while the rest of them  sat the other end like I had some contagious disease. They never bothered to tried questioning or learning about it I guess they have only their ideas of vegetarianism sad to say. I just took a cue from this treatment and learnt it was no better to treat people with antagonism about their preference on what they freely choose to eat. That is their personal right to do so. However when it comes to restaurants I would like to sit down with my friends who are mostly omnivorous bordering on carnivorous and be able to eat something other than a salad or the one unremarkable choice of vegi' entrees that are offered to me. My friends and I were at a restaurant recently in which I had to sit there and watch them eat not being able to myself due to lack of choice, making all of us feel very uncomfortable at best. It actually was not me but my friends asking why there was no vegetarian choices on the menu to the manager we were met with silence. Vegetarianism in itself is an eating habit not a religious creed for me at least.It is also not just a diet to lose weight it's a very real eating habit.Having said that I do not believe in the one size fits all theory I believe there are people who can't become vegetarian due blood types, physical ailments,  and extenuating circumstances. I believe everyone has a choice in what they choose to consume and I am content with mine. ;)

DennisK

I had been a vegetarian for about 9 years starting before my first son was born.  We have gotten off path the past few years, but are recommitting.  It isn't easy, but it is worth it for us.  I'm lucky to have a wife who is skilled in the kitchen, so she can make some good veggie meals.

I think everyone would reduce their meat intake after watching "Super Size Me" and/or "Fast Food Nation".  They are both insightful.  The meat industry is disgusting aside from the 'unethical' treatment.  I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not a big fan of eating shit (although my father frequently claimed I had a shit-eating grin :hmm: ).

In regards to energy, the only time I notice energy loss is when I do eat meat.  The claims of lethargy related to trying vegetarianism is probably due to a processed or fast food addiction.  Head ache and irritability are also traits of coming off of this addiction.
"If you take a highly intelligent person and give them the best possible, elite education, then you will most likely wind up with an academic who is completely impervious to reality." -Halton Arp

Wechtlein Uns

I am well aware that animal treatment is horrendous, immoral, ect. I am also aware that eating a vegetarian diet might be more healthy for me.

But I make the conscious decision to eat meat as well as veggies, and simply respect bovines for their sacrafice.
"What I mean when I use the term "god" represents nothing more than an interactionist view of the universe, a particularite view of time, and an ever expansive view of myself." -- Jose Luis Nunez.

Wraitchel

You know it doesn't have to be an all or nothing proposition. I was a vegetarian for years, but I eat meat now because my middle kid is allergic to most vegetarian forms of protein, including soy, lentils, nuts, seeds, and some beans. He's also allergic to eggs. I still try to feed my family several vegetarian meals a week: bean burritos, mac-n-cheese, veggie pizza. It's easy, and it is good for the planet and for our bodies. Even if you only replace a couple of meat meals a week with vegetarian ones, it helps reduce your negative impact on the environment and also improves your health.

I am trying to reduce the meat in my own diet right now in an effort to get my asthma under control. I have a host of problems, from asthma to irritable bowel syndrome to Meniere's disease, all of which are caused by inflammation. A diet high in meat contributes to chronic inflammation, according to several sources I've read.

AnnaM

Vegetarianism makes perfect sense under one of two conditions, not mutually exclusive:
1. One does not enjoy eating meat.
2. Plants fight back.
Neither is so in my case, thus vegetarianism is (for me) irrational.
"Liberty and equality are in essence contradictory." - Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn