Ethical basis for Veganism or Vegetarianism?

[bitter_sweet_symphony]

Have been thinking about this for some time now. Is vegetarianism the better or the ideal way? I have read many arguments for vegetarianism and I must say I am somewhat convinced by a few. I feel that the animals are cruelly slaughtered and am all for animal welfare, but maybe giving up all non-vegetarian diet is going too far?

Has anyone tried vegetarianism or thinks it has any non-religious benefits? Would love to hear.

[Mister Joy]

You don't have to stop eating meat; you can just try to make sure it comes from a humane source.

[MommaSquid]

I cringe every time I see a program on animal slaughter and the conditions in which they are raised.   It's horrible how they are treated.

Having said that, I enjoy a good steak dinner too much to give up eating meat.  And my hubby makes a mean pork chop!

Sorry animals.  

[myleviathan]

It's so curious how similar animals are to people biologically. We're all animals, of course. And we all have to eat. Some animals are naturally fit to eat other animals, and others to eat plants. Humans are fit to eat both.

I don't know how credible the information is, but I have read that depending on blood type, some people may benefit from a vegetarian diet as opposed to meat diet, or vice versa. For instance, since blood type O is an older blood type derived in earlier humans, they might benefit from eating more meat as opposed to vegetables because they thrived in an environment when humans hunted and scavenged.

Later, as humans developed agriculture and civilization, new blood types developed. The most recently developed blood type is A positive. So it may benefit people with this blood type to have a diet with much more vegetables. Their tummies are more sensative than the earlier hunter gatherer types.

As omnivores we can pretty much eat what we want. Go with your instincts. If you don't like meat, don't eat it. If you don't like veggies, don't eat them.

[McQ]

There is a lot of information yet to go through before anything definitive can be said about this. However, the early evidence seems to point towards humans being omnivores, which is what we have thought all along.

A quick, topical article is here:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-82352627.html

It is not a conclusion, but an indicator of a good potential answer, and one in need of much further study.

[Whitney]

From my understanding cutting out meat completely will not be healthy unless you are really good at making sure you eat a balanced diet.  For instance, it's a lot easier to get iron and protein out of animal products than it is from veggies.  Also, I have read studies which indicate that vitamins may not be all that effective in making up for an unbalanced diet.

I ate a vegetarian diet for a while to loose weight.  I started feeling too drained and went back to eating like a normal person....I think not eating meat was making me anemic since I'm borderline even when I do eat meat.

Also, if you do decide to eat only veggies...make sure to plan ahead.  Most fast food and restaurants will not provide vegetarian options.  If you go vegan it will be that much more difficult because most vegetarian options you do find at places include some sort of animal product....even at the grocery store; something so veggie looking like vegetable broth very well might have animal products in it.

I would suggest eating mostly veggies yet also incorporating meats into the diet to make sure you keep your nutrient levels up.  Most grocery stores offer organic free-range options...I guess that doesn't gurantee they were killed humanely but it does mean they weren't stuck in a cage no bigger than a shoe box.  Personally, I can't afford to buy that stuff..it's double or more the normal cost....actually, eating a vegetarian diet does tend to be more costly.

[bitter_sweet_symphony]

From my understanding cutting out meat completely will not be healthy unless you are really good at making sure you eat a balanced diet. For instance, it's a lot easier to get iron and protein out of animal products than it is from veggies. Also, I have read studies which indicate that vitamins may not be all that effective in making up for an unbalanced diet.

I ate a vegetarian diet for a while to loose weight. I started feeling too drained and went back to eating like a normal person....I think not eating meat was making me anemic since I'm borderline even when I do eat meat.

Also, if you do decide to eat only veggies...make sure to plan ahead. Most fast food and restaurants will not provide vegetarian options. If you go vegan it will be that much more difficult because most vegetarian options you do find at places include some sort of animal product....even at the grocery store; something so veggie looking like vegetable broth very well might have animal products in it.

I would suggest eating mostly veggies yet also incorporating meats into the diet to make sure you keep your nutrient levels up. Most grocery stores offer organic free-range options...I guess that doesn't gurantee they were killed humanely but it does mean they weren't stuck in a cage no bigger than a shoe box. Personally, I can't afford to buy that stuff..it's double or more the normal cost....actually, eating a vegetarian diet does tend to be more costly.

I too felt pretty drained out when I tried vegetarian diet for a month or so. The funny thing is that here in India, many people are vegetarians and there isn't any apparent difference in the energy levels of the vegetarians and the non-vegetarians. Perhaps it could have something to do with what type of diet the body is accustomed to?

There is a lot of information yet to go through before anything definitive can be said about this. However, the early evidence seems to point towards humans being omnivores, which is what we have thought all along.

Thanks for the link. It has some good points on why humans are natural omnivores. Now have got some ammunition to counter my vegan friends, or maybe not, cause they mostly use religious justifications for not eating meat and won't be interested much in scientific arguments  

I don't know how credible the information is, but I have read that depending on blood type, some people may benefit from a vegetarian diet as opposed to meat diet, or vice versa. For instance, since blood type O is an older blood type derived in earlier humans, they might benefit from eating more meat as opposed to vegetables because they thrived in an environment when humans hunted and scavenged.

Have searched around about something regarding this, but haven't found much. Could you give me the source for this? Sounds interesting. If true it goes against the argument in the article that humans benefit most from mixed diets.  :?

[0dan1]

whichever way you look at it, it is natural for humans to eat meat, and kill their animals for it.

all animals die just like all humans do, animals kill each other all the time.

The bad conditions some animals are raised in, then to be killed, i don't think are relevant. If you bring up an animal in captivity, then it will be all that it will know, and so won't mind =P I'm also pretty sceptical about the level of consciousness animals have compared to us...

Meh, theres far worse atrocities than animals being killed for food.

[Mister Joy]

]The bad conditions some animals are raised in, then to be killed, i don't think are relevant. If you bring up an animal in captivity, then it will be all that it will know, and so won't mind =P I'm also pretty sceptical about the level of consciousness animals have compared to us...

To be honest, I think the conditions in a lot of places are atrocious and do need to be addressed. The butcher I buy from gets his meat from local sources, which are all open to visitors and run very humanely.

Also, you have to keep in mind that it isn't just a matter of bad treatment being immoral to the animals; it's also generally the case that the happiness of the animal during life is directly proportional to the quality of the meat. Looking at the conditions that some of these creatures can end up in, I wouldn't want to eat them for my own sake more than theirs. You can easily taste the difference, for example, between free range chicken and battery chicken.

[Will]

I don't eat red meat anymore, and I've found that I'm more healthy for it. I'm on a low carbohydrate, high protein diet which would make cutting meat completely somewhat difficult, though.

Vegetarianism = friendly to animals? Well I suppose so, though not all farm animals are mistreated. I will admit that seeing a cow killed did play a small role in no longer eating red meat, but having your head quickly removed (fish/poultry) seems somewhat humane, though it's probably scary as shit for the poor animals in the last second. "Hey, buddy, what are you doing with that knif.... OH MY GOD."

[fodder]

Has anyone tried vegetarianism or thinks it has any non-religious benefits? Would love to hear.

I haven't tried it, but have a sibling who has been vegan for years. She had an obesity problem, and is diabetic, although she claims the reason for her veggie diet is a love of animals.
She has gradually lost weight, and seems to have no nutrition issues, and has excellent control of her blood sugars.
I'm too fond of meat and fish to give it up, although if I had to kill it myself, I would be eating only vegetables and fish. Somehow when you're looking at those steaks and roasts in the supermarket it all seems so far removed from four legged reality.

[donkeyhoty]

will admit that seeing a cow killed did play a small role in no longer eating red meat, but having your head quickly removed (fish/poultry) seems somewhat humane, though it's probably scary as shit for the poor animals in the last second. "Hey, buddy, what are you doing with that knif.... OH MY GOD."

Have you seen how they harvest carrots?  They just rip them right out of the ground.  And wheat?  They just slice it in twain.  The barbarians.

I'm a true vegan.  I only eat fruits and veggies that are harvested in a humane and gentle manner.  All my carrots are dug from the ground, gently I might add, and then they are massaged and placed in an organic cotton-lined basket, which was made from bamboo that was harvested from stalks that had fallen over.  It is most definately not cut.

[SteveS]

For some reason this thread is reminding me of Richard Jeni's "Platypus Man" stand-up where he talks about the lobsters.  There's prob. a video of this out there....

Well, I found one, but the relevant part is in the middle.  Here's a video with the clip - the lobster parts starts at 5:00 and goes to about 8:00 (if you don't want to watch the whole thing).  Oh - and the language probably isn't "work-friendly".

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ztpKAj6JN8A

[bitter_sweet_symphony]

Have you seen how they harvest carrots? They just rip them right out of the ground. And wheat? They just slice it in twain. The barbarians.

I'm a true vegan. I only eat fruits and veggies that are harvested in a humane and gentle manner. All my carrots are dug from the ground, gently I might add, and then they are massaged and placed in an organic cotton-lined basket, which was made from bamboo that was harvested from stalks that had fallen over. It is most definately not cut.

Rotfl. Lucky carrots

[Promethium147]

Moral Issues aside - vegetarianism is vastly more efficient. This should be apparent from a basic course in Biology.

In practice, a balanced diet is difficult for a vegetarian - without a computer. You, however, seem to have one.

First, let me point out - the only known means of life extension is Calorie Restriction, or a Calorie Restricted Optimal Nutrition Diet. The idea is to COMPUTE a diet where all daily needs are acquired through food, not supplements.

A CRON diet has been applied to innumerable species from nematode worms to primates. The projected benefit in Man is 40 to 60% life extension. This has been know for some time, but the mechanism was only recently discovered (I note it was recently featured on NOVA.)

The low-calorie diet over long term is interpreted as a basic threat of starvation, a single gene pair comes "ON", and initiates several others - primarily in the immune complex. Once in Immune Overdrive, we stay there - and all the minuscule infections that otherwise go unnoticed are stemmed earlier, there is less cell death, apparent age is a function of this, and nothing else - we are in no sense "programmed" to die.

The full benefit is achieved when applied to toddlers - who would live long, at an average height of about 4 feet. Wait until full growth is met, that's more humane, I think.

I did this once, the results were spectacular, but - what a chore was cooking and storage. I think I've fixed that - rather than try to make diverse recipes simulating common dishes, I just blenderize what's cheap 'n easy - and again, it really seems to work. I've been at it again for a week, have dropped 12 pounds, and my energy increases steadily - just like last time.

It's simple now. The only supplement is a common daily vitamin, and a little magnesium, both of which can be popped in the blender too.

I would be delighted to share. I have a little spreadsheet (really a notepad) of the results for two meals per day, but this is not fixed - you can create whatever recipes you like. The interest in this is that every NEW RDA nutrient is linked to a Wikipedia page, which helped me organize any possible toxicities or deficiency indicators, as well as innumerable other references on each component.

The surprising result is, I eat the following Daily -

Morning Smoothie - simply delicious, if overwhelmingly sweet.

1 Centrum multivitamin
a spoon of Flax seed oil
1 raw brazil nut
1 banana
2 oranges
1 kiwi fruit
1/4 cup blueberries
1 cup plain nonfat yogurt
1 small scoop soy isolate protein -
  - which may be replaced by 2 egg whites, and omitting the brazil nut.

Evening Soupage -

150 g broccoli
150 g microwaved Yam (3 min.)
20 g salted sunflower seed
3 cloves garlic (pop in with Yams, otherwise SPICY HOT!)
1 small 6 oz. can tomato paste (equivalent to about 5 tomatoes)
1 small scoop soy isolate protein

Check out http://www.nutritiondata.com/ , start a pantry, build your own.

This may seem monotonous, but really, I can't tire of the Morning Smoothie, and the evening Soup is rather flavorless (if garlic is roasted), so spice away.

You will find a good restaurant meal mebbe twice per week tastes REALLY good - there's no sauce like hunger. However, a Big Mac is even far more revolting than before.

The downstroke - groceries cost me about $120 per month, delivered fresh weekly. There are no dishes, pots or utensils - and no waste to speak of. Just rinse blender on the spot, and Big Mug when done.

Anyone interested can have a copy of the spreadsheet, and some other useful stuff.

Live Long, and Prosper!