Can an Atheist get into heaven

[PoopShoot]

Sure, PS. You'd agree with Ghandi, who as you know said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." The good news is that Christians will be raised, the same as you (assuming, again, that you believed the Gospel), with a body like Christ's, meaning that in heaven they will be like Him. That expression of pure goodness will be then what it ought to be now and very few actually even give a real attempt and trying today.

Great, they will have eternal bodies, but their essence (according to you) will be the same, so they will still be assholes.  Regardless, you've yet to demonstrate or support any of your points and you are expressing mutually exclusive points, so you're about as convincing as my my wife was when she tried to reassure my kid that the tooth fairy is real when he caught her with her hand under his pillow.

[The Magic Pudding]

Why would you want to go to the Christian heaven? It's full of self rightious pricks and nobody fun or interesting ever gets in.

He's makin a list
He's checking it twice
He knows who's been naughty or nice.

Santa's workshop, Noddy's Toyland, whoever's heaven, they are just imaginings.
You can't get there from here.

[Jac3510]

Great, they will have eternal bodies, but their essence (according to you) will be the same, so they will still be assholes.  Regardless, you've yet to demonstrate or support any of your points and you are expressing mutually exclusive points, so you're about as convincing as my my wife was when she tried to reassure my kid that the tooth fairy is real when he caught her with her hand under his pillow.

Everyone gets an eternal body. The question is what your experience in that body will be. Those in heaven will experience participation in perfect goodness, since they are united with God, where as those in Hell will experience absolute disconnect from goodness, since they will have rejected Him. Again, our essences will be precisely the same as they are today. The only thing that will change is the degree to which we participate in goodness. That is an accidental property, not an essential one, just as much as whether or not I have hair is accidental to my essence. I've demonstrated this before, without comment from you. If our experience of goodness is essential to who we are, then we cannot logically say that a good man turned bad or a bad man turned good are the same people to the extent that we cannot attribute good or bad actions to the same people. To give a very concrete example, if today I lie to my employer without any justification whatsoever beyond personal gain, that is clearly wrong; but if I then go home and treat my wife to a splendid evening for no other reason than the fact that she is my wife and I want to treat her, that is clearly good. Yet if the goodness I experience is essential who who I am, then we cannot say that the person who lied is the same person who treated, since the former would have experienced less goodness than the latter.

We see, then, that the level of goodness you experience is accidental to your essence, both in this life and the next.

As far as demonstrating the mutually exclusive points, it seems that we are crossing threads here. I've said here that an atheist who at some point in his life believed the Gospel will go to heaven. This, of course, assumes that the Gospel is true, but the entire question about heaven, at least the Christian heaven, presupposes the Christian Gospel anyway. Since those who believe in Jesus have everlasting life right now, then if you have ever believed in Jesus, you still have everlasting life (otherwise, if you had lost it, it would not have been everlasting life that you had in the first place).

Concerning the raising of people with good bodies, I've generally argued for that in the discussion on Hell. Again, if God is good as I and classical theism has defined Him, then heaven and hell as I have described them are, I think I've argued correctly, necessary logical corollaries. So the only issue is whether or not God exists and if He is really good.

And concerning that, I've argued briefly in the Hell thread as well that the moral argument for God's existence proves it. If objective morality is only found in God, and if morality is objective, then God exists as a perfectly moral being, from which everything else follows we've discussed. We've discussed whether or not morality can be objective without God, and I believe it's rather apparent that a non-divine morality is subjective any way you look at it, being rooted either in personal or societal value preferences, whatever the origin of those preferences may be. Is morality objective? The very fact that we all condemn Hell is really evil if it is punitive I think proves that we all really do think morality is objective, because if it were mere preference, then we couldn't say such a Hell was really evil in the first place. We could only say that we don't approve, as if that had any argumentative merit.

So whether or not you've found my arguments persuasive, and I realize you haven't, I have offered the connection between the points. It's just a matter of deciding at what point(s) you disagree.

--------------------------------------------------------

He's makin a list
He's checking it twice
He knows who's been naughty or nice.

You do realize that on Christianity, being naughty or nice doesn't decide whether or not you go to heaven or hell, right?

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." (John 3:16-18, NIV)

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithâ€"and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of Godâ€"not by works, so that no one can boast." (Eph. 2:8-9, NIV)

[PoopShoot]

I've demonstrated this before, without comment from you.

I'm sorry, where was this?  You've not demonstrated that good is incidental to a being whose existence is in question.

As for your argument of a guy lying to his employer but being good to his wife: the former means that the man was detrimental to his employer for personal gain, which is detrimental to the company and to society as a whole via the economy, he has damaged his species for personal gain and has acted like a parasite in that instance.  The man treating his wife well is beneficial to his marriage, which bolsters the family unit.  This is neutral to society as a whole, but if he has children he is teaching them how to benefit their family while being neutral to society, so he is negating future drains on society in the form of abusive families.

[The Magic Pudding]

He's makin a list
He's checking it twice
He knows who's been naughty or nice.

You do realize that on Christianity, being naughty or nice doesn't decide whether or not you go to heaven or hell, right?

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." (John 3:16-18, NIV)

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithâ€"and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of Godâ€"not by works, so that no one can boast." (Eph. 2:8-9, NIV)

Ye well that's just great, it must make recruitment so much easier.
Thank you for validating my antipathy for your religion.

[Jac3510]

I've demonstrated this before, without comment from you.

I'm sorry, where was this?  You've not demonstrated that good is incidental to a being whose existence is in question.

As for your argument of a guy lying to his employer but being good to his wife: the former means that the man was detrimental to his employer for personal gain, which is detrimental to the company and to society as a whole via the economy, he has damaged his species for personal gain and has acted like a parasite in that instance.  The man treating his wife well is beneficial to his marriage, which bolsters the family unit.  This is neutral to society as a whole, but if he has children he is teaching them how to benefit their family while being neutral to society, so he is negating future drains on society in the form of abusive families.

In my first point to you in this post.

Let's save the discussion on hell for the hell thread? I'll respond to this in addition to your other comments there later today.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Ye well that's just great, it must make recruitment so much easier.
Thank you for validating my antipathy for your religion.

Actually, you'd be surprised (or perhaps not) just how many it offends. People want to do something to save themselves. People, even many Christians I know, are deeply offended by the notion that God saves by grace or not at all.

But I can't do nor would I try to do anything about your antipathy for Christianity. God did everything for you so that all you have to do is trust Him to save you. He made you a promise. If you trust Jesus for eternal life, you'll have it. What you do with that is up to you. If it angers you that much more that God would make it so easy, then ok.

[PoopShoot]

In my first point to you in this post.

You didn't demonstrate anything there, you merely made bald assertions.

Let's save the discussion on hell for the hell thread? I'll respond to this in addition to your other comments there later today.

If you wish.  I plan to be around.

[Jac3510]

In my first point to you in this post.

You didn't demonstrate anything there, you merely made bald assertions.

Let's save the discussion on hell for the hell thread? I'll respond to this in addition to your other comments there later today.

If you wish.  I plan to be around.

I do wish.

[DropLogic]

Since the rules for getting into heaven are so clearly outlined in the bible  , how does a god-fearing Christian know if he's made the cut?  According the rules I know of...it's impossible to get into heaven just by being human.  
Further more, why do you worry so much about what happens when you die?  Our time here is very short...make the best of it.

[Jac3510]

Since the rules for getting into heaven are so clearly outlined in the bible  , how does a god-fearing Christian know if he's made the cut?  According the rules I know of...it's impossible to get into heaven just by being human.  
Further more, why do you worry so much about what happens when you die?  Our time here is very short...make the best of it.

They're perfectly clear cut. See John 3:16 and Eph. 2:8-9, or Acts 16:31. If you trust Jesus to save you from Hell, He does. That simple.

So what are these other "rules" you know of?

[DropLogic]

Since the rules for getting into heaven are so clearly outlined in the bible  , how does a god-fearing Christian know if he's made the cut?  According the rules I know of...it's impossible to get into heaven just by being human.  
Further more, why do you worry so much about what happens when you die?  Our time here is very short...make the best of it.

They're perfectly clear cut. See John 3:16 and Eph. 2:8-9, or Acts 16:31. If you trust Jesus to save you from Hell, He does. That simple.

So what are these other "rules" you know of?

Oh..I thought original sin and thought crime was grounds for eviction?
That's amazingly simple though...just have to trust a man who might have lived 2000 years ago...Know anyone who has confirmed this theory?

[Jac3510]

Oh..I thought original sin and thought crime was grounds for eviction?
That's amazingly simple though...just have to trust a man who might have lived 2000 years ago...Know anyone who has confirmed this theory?

No, original sin doesn't keep you out of heaven. Again, look at John 3:16-18. It's a simple matter. Trust Jesus to save you from Hell and you have eternal life. And I do know someone who has confirmed the theory. His name is Jesus, and He confirmed it by starting the Resurrection. If you stick around a couple of weeks, we'll get into those issues. In the meantime, I'm discussing the whole Hell concept in another thread.

[DropLogic]

Oh..I thought original sin and thought crime was grounds for eviction?
That's amazingly simple though...just have to trust a man who might have lived 2000 years ago...Know anyone who has confirmed this theory?

No, original sin doesn't keep you out of heaven. Again, look at John 3:16-18. It's a simple matter. Trust Jesus to save you from Hell and you have eternal life. And I do know someone who has confirmed the theory. His name is Jesus, and He confirmed it by starting the Resurrection. If you stick around a couple of weeks, we'll get into those issues. In the meantime, I'm discussing the whole Hell concept in another thread.

:hmm:

I'm not going to argue with a condescending crazy person.  There can be no argument, because we live in different realities.  
In case you were not aware though...rights and wrongs are not determined by god...they are determined by the current governing body mixed with social acceptability.  The rights and wrongs of the biblical era are vastly different than today's versions.

[Jac3510]

:hmm:

You believe while you are alive, and then when you die physically, you live with Christ in heaven until the Resurrection.

I'm not going to argue with a condescending crazy person.  There can be no argument, because we live in different realities.  
In case you were not aware though...rights and wrongs are not determined by god...they are determined by the current governing body mixed with social acceptability.  The rights and wrongs of the biblical era are vastly different than today's versions.

Just to make sure I am following you . . . I'm condescending because I pointed out where the Bible says salvation is by faith alone, and that this is historically verified by Jesus' resurrection? And yet you started this conversation by saying you "know" of "rules" that keep a person out of heaven (which you didn't back up), respond (with what appears to be a tinge of sarcasm) that Jesus might have lived and ask for verification, and then finally call me condescending, crazy, imply I don't live in reality, and challenge whether or not I am aware of your particular view of social morality, and moreso, as if your view is the only possibility without even considering what philosophers of ethics are suggesting? You do all that, and somehow, I'm the condescending one.

Okay.

Oh, I almost forgot:  

[DropLogic]

:hmm:

You believe while you are alive, and then when you die physically, you live with Christ in heaven until the Resurrection.

I'm not going to argue with a condescending crazy person.  There can be no argument, because we live in different realities.  
In case you were not aware though...rights and wrongs are not determined by god...they are determined by the current governing body mixed with social acceptability.  The rights and wrongs of the biblical era are vastly different than today's versions.

Just to make sure I am following you . . . I'm condescending because I pointed out where the Bible says salvation is by faith alone, and that this is historically verified by Jesus' resurrection? And yet you started this conversation by saying you "know" of "rules" that keep a person out of heaven (which you didn't back up), respond (with what appears to be a tinge of sarcasm) that Jesus might have lived and ask for verification, and then finally call me condescending, crazy, imply I don't live in reality, and challenge whether or not I am aware of your particular view of social morality, and moreso, as if your view is the only possibility without even considering what philosophers of ethics are suggesting? You do all that, and somehow, I'm the condescending one.

Okay.

Oh, I almost forgot:  

Where you get it wrong is the the bible is not a book based on facts...only faith.  HUGE distinction.
And no..you're condescending because you told me to stick around, suggesting that you will in some way educate me.
I would hardly call the resurrection verified...it's a ghost story...The same as Santa, the same as the Tooth Fairy.
Asking for proof of your claims does not make me condescending...YOU have the burden of proof, I don't.
Parental and peer influence determine a person's morals.
And yes, I feel that people who believe without proof do not live in reality.
You're an atheist too...I just go one god further.