Atheism is Abdication

[Tank]

Brain barf.

 

@hismikeness & parrotpirate

How does what parrotpirate wrote followed by your jocular endorsement square with the forum's Mission Statement?

At HAF we know that atheists are often happy ethical people just like anyone else. It is our goal to help dissolve negative stereotypes currently held towards atheists and facilitate productive dialogue with those of differing viewpoints.

[Edward the Theist]

Atheism is abdication.

Meaningless drivel.

QED I think.

[SSY]

I am more than happy to respond with "I don't know" to any singularity based questions (which by the way, is at this point a presumption, we have not got concrete evidence for before 10^-37 seconds, as far I know). Which puts me and you in similar positions, except that I have fewer entities to explain than you do.

That's atheism!

We are both sure that the universe exists, the only thing I don't know is how/why it exists. You have the problems  of how/why your god exists, whether or not it even exists (severe lack of evidence), how/why it created the universe, all the characteristics of this god and all the continuing interactions it may or may not have with the universe. I have posited nothing that is not plainly obvious. You have posited something that just launches a dizzying array of questions. Your position is one that has far more holes than mine.

My position is one that has far more holes than yours because my position has far more questions than yours. But I think I've come to a conclusion. I think I have taken the question of God as far as I logically can from my perspective.

From my perspective, I have come to see God as a primordial conscious force that perceives only eternity. This concept of God has a major flaw. It equals nothing in its effect. This primordial (g)od has no memories of anything, has no desires for anything, has no motivation to change, and no direction in which to change if it wanted to. It never would have created the universe. It exists without any cause, because it exists eternally, but it can't change from that.

And by the way, the big revelation here is that atheism has the same problem. Take away God and you still have the same problem, only you have it with the singularity. So, today, I am somewhat happy, because today I have transcended atheism and theism. They both are fu..ed.

I think you have missed my point quite spectacularly. You seem content to frame atheism as a similar thought process to theism, which I am afraid, is simply not the case. Atheism leaves certain questions unanswered, but the point is, not having an answer is better than inventing one with no evidence, and then expounding centuries of rationalisations to try and prop up a shoddy belief system. All this stuff about your god, you provide no evidence to suggest this is the case, it's simply your own flights of fancy.

As I said before, atheism does not have the same problem as theism (well, one of the same problems, theism is positively riddled with holes and inconsistencies), because it posits nothing, and so, it is not required to explain anything. Explaining the origin of the universe is not in the realm of atheism, it is merely a question (among many) that atheism does not pretend to answer.

[Edward the Theist]

Edward,

Your worldview seems to give you comfort, perhaps that is the reason you adhere to it.

I'm sorry, did you say "comfort?" Do you see a lot of comfort in my OP? Cuz I'm just not feeling it. :bananacolor:

[Sophus]

For atheists, the universe needs no explanation. Atheists are not troubled by existentialistic musings. That's one of the advantages to giving up belief in God.

Not true. I require real explanations, not any hypothetical explanation that pops into my head. And as Kylyssa already pointed out, you don't require an explanation for God or his inception.

[DaveD]

Atheists aren't satanic or evil. They're people. But they are people who have abdicated spiritual growth,

Please define "spiritual growth", so we can say for ourselves whether we "abdicate" it.

[Asmodean]

to giving up belief in God.

Since you've obviously defined atheists as those who gave up believing in gods, what would that make a creatur like me, who never did?

On the whole though, you display a very religious-minded understanding of atheists. You assume left and right that people are - at the core - like you. They are not. And in the question of religion, they are pretty much like us, since everyone is born an atheist and indoctrinated otherwise.

[notself]

Sorry, to offend you, but atheism is just bullshit. Pure and simple. It is abdication. It is avoidance of the discomfort I'm currently going through. That's it.

I've transcended theism and atheism at this point. They both have the same problem. So, I'm off a cliff into a black void. I don't know what I'm going to find.

Atheists aren't satanic or evil. They're people. But they are people who have abdicated spiritual growth, and therefore they unwittingly become the medium of atheism.

You say you question things but all I see in your posts is an attempt to convince yourself that what you want to believe is true.  That is very different than testing your actual belief.  

The large atheists religions of the world, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, Jainism as well as the atheistic religions of Hinduism, Samkhya and Mimasa are ones of peace.  The moral codes are in some cases superior to those you profess.  Buddhism for example has a precept against killing any sentient being while your code just command that you not murder.  The moral code of Ahimsa in Jainism, Buddhism, and atheistic Hinduism is one of the most demanding codes of conduct and spiritual investigation that has ever been proposed.  Living and practicing one of these atheistic paths results in spiritual growth you say is lacking in atheism. If you are serious about spiritual exploration you should explore these religions/philosophies that get along just fine without a creation story or creator god.

[humblesmurph]

Edward,

Your worldview seems to give you comfort, perhaps that is the reason you adhere to it.

I'm sorry, did you say "comfort?" Do you see a lot of comfort in my OP? Cuz I'm just not feeling it. :bananacolor:

If I may be so bold: the discomfort you feel may be your faith waning.  You try to convince others as a way to convince yourself.  You are in this limbo because of your inquisitive mind.  Faith, not science, is what you seem to need.

You seem to be taking the agnostic approach to god. The true agnostic (imo) can't really be a theist.  Agnosticism is about following the evidence, not creating it.  It requires that we not make conclusions not supported by facts.  No matter how close you come to God with your admittedly interesting theories, you will still have to make a leap of faith to get to it. In your heart of hearts, you know that you haven't proven god's existence.  At best you've shown yourself that god may exist.

Reread your post.  You are displaying a burning desire to make something more out of existence than just the physical.  Is it possible that your reason is clouded?  Sometimes we see what we want to see.  A scientist has to have some sort of objectivity.  She has to allow for the possibility that her initial hypothesis may be flawed.  You seem unwilling to do that. You seem like you are going to keep searching until you find god.  You could save yourself a lot of time and trouble by just having faith.
 

Just my two cents.

[Edward the Theist]

For atheists, the universe needs no explanation. Atheists are not troubled by existentialistic musings. That's one of the advantages to giving up belief in God.

Not true. I require real explanations, not any hypothetical explanation that pops into my head. And as Kylyssa already pointed out, you don't require an explanation for God or his inception.

Okay, first, God would not have an inception; if he did he wouldn't be God. So, you can say God doesn't exist and we can debate the right or wrong of that, but to go on about the creation of God is...what's a polite word...unenlightened.

[Edward the Theist]

You say you question things but all I see in your posts is an attempt to convince yourself that what you want to believe is true.  That is very different than testing your actual belief.  

The large atheists religions of the world, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, Jainism as well as the atheistic religions of Hinduism, Samkhya and Mimasa are ones of peace.

What planet are you freakin living on? The last Chinese restaurant I went to, behind the counter was a little statue of Buddha with incense burning and peices of fruit sacraficed before it. And in my entire life, I have never met an atheistic Hindu, and I work with them all the time.

The moral codes are in some cases superior to those you profess.

I hope so, since I haven't professed one moral code since I've been in this forum.

Buddhism for example has a precept against killing any sentient being while your code just command that you not murder.

What's a sentient being? Why shouldn't we kill them? And what's my code? I'm a Veridican, we only have two tenets: God is monistic and the human purpose is to be Christ. That's it.

The moral code of Ahimsa in Jainism, Buddhism, and atheistic Hinduism is one of the most demanding codes of conduct and spiritual investigation that has ever been proposed.  Living and practicing one of these atheistic paths results in spiritual growth you say is lacking in atheism.

I'm sorry, are you saying there's spiritual growth in atheism?

If you are serious about spiritual exploration you should explore these religions/philosophies that get along just fine without a creation story or creator god.

Uh...thanks. I'll take that under advisement.

[Tank]

I'm sorry, are you saying there's spiritual growth in atheism?

I would. As an advancement in one's understanding of how the world really works atheism could be considered as spiritual growth. Just because one has reached the conclusion that God is very highly unlikely doesn't make one any less spiritual in terms of appreciating the intricate work of evolution or the magnificent effects of plate tectonics or the compassion of humanity all around one, every day. You see as God does not exist all that has ever been said or done in his name has effectively just been done by nature, no God required. It's only when one admits that no God is required that you can truly see reality for what it is, not through the smeared perception of a person who is trying to second guess a purpose and meaning thrust upon them by superstitious beliefs. God is not required to be spiritual, that comes from within the person.

Edit is > has

[notself]

Well said, Tank.

[Asmodean]

Well said indeed.

[notself]

You say you question things but all I see in your posts is an attempt to convince yourself that what you want to believe is true.  That is very different than testing your actual belief.  

The large atheists religions of the world, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, Jainism as well as the atheistic religions of Hinduism, Samkhya and Mimasa are ones of peace.

What planet are you freakin living on? The last Chinese restaurant I went to, behind the counter was a little statue of Buddha with incense burning and peices of fruit sacraficed before it. And in my entire life, I have never met an atheistic Hindu, and I work with them all the time.
I never said all of Hinduism, which is a word referencing many religions, is atheistic.  I specifically named two which were.

That statue is not of the Buddha.  It is a statue of a folk lore deity called Hotai who carries a sack full of wealth.  The wealth can be toys for children, money for businessmen, or children for the childless.  As I said before, Asians mix beliefs from various systems.

The moral codes are in some cases superior to those you profess.

I hope so, since I haven't professed one moral code since I've been in this forum.
Below you say that you human purpose is to be Christ.  Are you saying that is not a moral code?

Buddhism for example has a precept against killing any sentient being while your code just command that you not murder.

What's a sentient being? Why shouldn't we kill them? And what's my code? I'm a Veridican, we only have two tenets: God is monistic and the human purpose is to be Christ. That's it.
Killing hardens the heart and mind of the killer.  Killing diminishes empathy and compassion.

The moral code of Ahimsa in Jainism, Buddhism, and atheistic Hinduism is one of the most demanding codes of conduct and spiritual investigation that has ever been proposed.  Living and practicing one of these atheistic paths results in spiritual growth you say is lacking in atheism.

I'm sorry, are you saying there's spiritual growth in atheism? I am saying there is spiritual growth in atheistic philosophies.

If you are serious about spiritual exploration you should explore these religions/philosophies that get along just fine without a creation story or creator god.

Uh...thanks. I'll take that under advisement.