The gospel of Judas

[Martin TK]

I posted this in a Theist forum recently and I was amazed at the responses I got there.  My take on the whole gospel thing is that they are NOT reliable as Historical arguments at all.  This one guy tried to give me all these writings by Christian "intellects" that proved the gospels should be taken as historical.  I was amazed, truly.

Here is the original post, can I have some feedback?

Hi everyone, I had heard of the Gnostic Gospels, particularly the one credited to Judas, so I went and found the most recent translation and read it. Wow, it certainly blows the whole Judas as a traitor out of the water, doesn't it?

I had heard for a long time that there was a growing number of Christians who felt that Judas had been the "fall guy" for Jesus; but this gospel of Judas really opens up that discussion. Anyway, I was just curious as to what the group felt about it.

[Dretlin]

I posted this in a Theist forum recently and I was amazed at the responses I got there.  My take on the whole gospel thing is that they are NOT reliable as Historical arguments at all.  This one guy tried to give me all these writings by Christian "intellects" that proved the gospels should be taken as historical.  I was amazed, truly.

Here is the original post, can I have some feedback?

Hi everyone, I had heard of the Gnostic Gospels, particularly the one credited to Judas, so I went and found the most recent translation and read it. Wow, it certainly blows the whole Judas as a traitor out of the water, doesn't it?

I had heard for a long time that there was a growing number of Christians who felt that Judas had been the "fall guy" for Jesus; but this gospel of Judas really opens up that discussion. Anyway, I was just curious as to what the group felt about it.

Is that gospel included in the catholic bible but not many protestant ones? I am aware the catholic bible has several more books.    

And I am sure that post went down a bloody storm.

[Thumpalumpacus]

No, the Gospel of Judas is in no Bible.

But even as a Baptist child, I thought Judas got a bum rap.  How the hell else was Christ gonna be busted except by someone throwing rat?

Even when I was a believer, I thought Judas was simply fulfilling his destiny, as set forth by God.

Now I just see the issue as one more example of the cognitive dissonance in Christianity.

[Martin TK]

It makes sense, if you think about it.  Jesus, according to the prophesies, had to die for the sins of man, or something like that.  IF the disciples had hidden him, or if he had simply left the city, wouldn't it have been a much different story.  Maybe Christians today might be wearing, what, little old age homes around their necks, if Jesus had died of old age.

Here is the link to the gospel.  Oh, and check out the reference to Barbelo, reads like a sci-fi novel.

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/lostg ... fJudas.pdf

And, as for it causing a ruckus, I had this one character attack me when I said that the gospels weren't very reliable as historical texts.  He posted a bunch of links to so-called peer reviewed articles and books, that proved that "historians" think that the bible is a valuable historical text.  Funny, these links to articles and books were all written by and reviewed by Christians writers and researcers.  The guy went so far as to call me an idiot because, as he said, I didn't understand how bodies of knowledge are collected and peer reviewed.  I sent him to a couple "peer reviewed" articles that claim that the Book of Mormon is an historical text.

[pinkocommie]

I sent him to a couple "peer reviewed" articles that claim that the Book of Mormon is an historical text.

So, was it audible when his head exploded?  Man, one thing Christians seem to really get upset about is Mormonism.  I got into a huge debate with someone I know about whether or not Mormons are Christians.  It's so strange to me that people will hold their own insane religious BS above other insane religious BS.  Jesus being his own dad and a zombie and turning water into wine, well, that's divine and something to be respected.  Jesus going to America and gold plates and Joseph Smith?  Ridiculous!  It always sounds like people fighting over their preferred brand of crazy to me.

As for Judas, I grew up thinking of him as the most tragic figure of the bible, really.  He fulfills his destiny which in turn allows the son of god to fulfill HIS destiny.  God's son gets holidays and shit while "Judas" becomes a commonly used term to describe a lowly traitor.  Hardly seems fair.

[Martin TK]

I sent him to a couple "peer reviewed" articles that claim that the Book of Mormon is an historical text.

So, was it audible when his head exploded?  Man, one thing Christians seem to really get upset about is Mormonism.  I got into a huge debate with someone I know about whether or not Mormons are Christians.  It's so strange to me that people will hold their own insane religious BS above other insane religious BS.  Jesus being his own dad and a zombie and turning water into wine, well, that's divine and something to be respected.  Jesus going to America and gold plates and Joseph Smith?  Ridiculous!  It always sounds like people fighting over their preferred brand of crazy to me.

As for Judas, I grew up thinking of him as the most tragic figure of the bible, really.  He fulfills his destiny which in turn allows the son of god to fulfill HIS destiny.  God's son gets holidays and shit while "Judas" becomes a commonly used term to describe a lowly traitor.  Hardly seems fair.

Yes, and then the Christians blame it all on the Jews, in the end...

I love the Mormon myth, its funny as hell.... I love to sit and talk with Mormons, if you can get them sit and do it, I make them a deal, I'll listen to them, then they have to listen to me.

[pinkocommie]

I used to work with a Mormon kid, I would talk with him all day long about religion.  He was really great to talk to because he was really secure with his beliefs and I was really secure with my position, so we were able to talk about a lot of things without getting upset at all.  This other ass face I worked with tried to use the kid's Mormonism against him, and I was shocked by how many people started bad mouthing him simply because he was Mormon.  These were Christians of every kind (mostly people who were in no way devout or even church going, mind you) turning on one of the nicest people at the place simply because his preferred version of nonsense was somehow unacceptable compared to their preferred version of nonsense.  It blew me away.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I lived in an apartment a few years ago next door to a pretty devout Mormon gal.  She had these two kids come by once every week or two.  Once she wasn't there, but I was on our common balcony, beer and book in hand.  What I thought would be a quick "no thanks, I have no faith" dismissal turned into an ongoing conversation that lasted many hours over many visits.  I learned a little bit about their religion, and the learned that not all atheists are jackasses.  At least, that's the message I tried to impart, through my behavior rather than words.

I often wonder what happened to them.

[karadan]

And, as for it causing a ruckus, I had this one character attack me when I said that the gospels weren't very reliable as historical texts.  He posted a bunch of links to so-called peer reviewed articles and books, that proved that "historians" think that the bible is a valuable historical text.  Funny, these links to articles and books were all written by and reviewed by Christians writers and researcers.  The guy went so far as to call me an idiot because, as he said, I didn't understand how bodies of knowledge are collected and peer reviewed.  I sent him to a couple "peer reviewed" articles that claim that the Book of Mormon is an historical text.

Haha. I'd love to see that thread.

[Businessocks]

I had heard of the Gnostic Gospels, particularly the one credited to Judas, so I went and found the most recent translation and read it. Wow, it certainly blows the whole Judas as a traitor out of the water, doesn't it?

Could you explain briefly how this text shifts that paradigm?  I'm really curious as I'm not familiar with it.

And all my years as a Christian, no one ever seemed to give an answer about Judas other than "God works in myterious ways.  He has a plan that isn't always for us to understand. Blah, blah, blah...

And then when you add to the Judas myth that he was so overcome with guilt that he killed himself, thereby condemning himself for all eternity to hell even more, it's an even more twisted story, imo.  So without Judas, Jesus wouldn't have completed his mission, but poor Judas gets to burn in hell for a plan that God set up and designed him for.  My head is spinning just thinking about it.

[Martin TK]

I had heard of the Gnostic Gospels, particularly the one credited to Judas, so I went and found the most recent translation and read it. Wow, it certainly blows the whole Judas as a traitor out of the water, doesn't it?

Could you explain briefly how this text shifts that paradigm?  I'm really curious as I'm not familiar with it.

And all my years as a Christian, no one ever seemed to give an answer about Judas other than "God works in myterious ways.  He has a plan that isn't always for us to understand. Blah, blah, blah...

And then when you add to the Judas myth that he was so overcome with guilt that he killed himself, thereby condemning himself for all eternity to hell even more, it's an even more twisted story, imo.  So without Judas, Jesus wouldn't have completed his mission, but poor Judas gets to burn in hell for a plan that God set up and designed him for.  My head is spinning just thinking about it.

In the Gospel according to Judas, Jesus pulls Judas aside and actually tells him that his has to betray Jesus as part of the grand plan.  The gospel gives new evidence that Judas was complicit with Jesus in the whole event.  Perhaps, and this is just my thinking, Judas didn't really kill himself at all, that the "other" gospels include the story of Judas as a traitor because somone had to be held accountable for giving up Jesus.  The real question concerning Judas is why did the other disciples simply sit back and allow Jesus to be taken, without a fight?  If you read the gospel of Judas, you see how the story is vastly different.  Hope that helps.