Arizona's Illegal Immigration Law

[JillSwift]

rejecting an argument for lack of evidence is hardly visceral

as it's obvious now that being skeptical of unsupported arguments is going to be addressed as emotional response here, by a mod, I've nothing else to say on this or any other subject

[Davin]

The magical tooth fairy doesn't pay for this does it.

Never said it did.

If you think these statements are false, you can feel free to explain to me how illegal immigrants crossing the boarder magically have health insurance, and magically don't occupy jobs when they get one to which could otherwise go to a legal citizen.

Yes, shift the burden of proof from the person making the positive claim to the person questioning the positive claim. That's not irrational at all... oh yeah, it is.

Everyone above is asking for evidence to a problem that is completely evident as an excuse to make illegal immigration legal, if not seemingly advocating it.. The following are facts you are going to have to deal with..

If they were facts.

1) We are paying to house hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens who do commit crimes.

Prove your positive claim or concede that it's speculation.

And this is regardless of your excuses in attempt to water this down to some how magically make this seem like it's not a problem..

No, I made no such attempt, I made an attempt at getting you to have an honest argument.

1 out of one million is irrelevant considering 1 million per 1 million are all illegal, and have committed a Federal Crime to begin with!.

I clearly stated violent crimes.

NO EXCUSES! Otherwise we should just legalize federal crimes?

Good logic, if one law were unjust we might as well just not have any laws at all. Nope, I disagree.

How far do you think I would get if I stole the identity of a legal immigrant?

Lot's of legal and native citizens do steal identities as well as people that don't even step a foot in this country. Is there more from illegal immigrants?

2) Not a single illegal immigrant should be here PERIOD! NO EXCUSES!.

Not even if the guy were water boating got into an accident and the U.S. had a closer hospital and the guy can and would pay his medical bill but didn't have his passport or green card? Not even if zeh Germans are torturing and killing the Jews and made emigration illegal? Sounds like an illogical absolute stance.

3) Sorry but the consensus reports are in fact evidence in regards to illegal aliens voting and manipulating our government to support their cause, and others like them..

You're going to have to explain how the census counts as voting and manipulating the Government, not just state it.

Feel free to contact your local government officials and state reps in regards to this if you think this isn't a problem.

So instead of you providing something for your argument your just dodging it and trying to place the burden on other people... where have I seen this tactic before? Making a positive claim without evidence then trying to shift the burden of proof...

4) Yes we do pay for illegal immigrants education, you can feel free to call your local school board, or state representatives if you need further evidence.. Where do you think these illegals are getting their education from when the cross the boarder kids? It's not at the local Mc Donald's where they might be working. And I suggest you look up your local state and government programs, grants, ectra that illegal immigrants can get to go to college for free while a legal citizen can't even afford to go to college.

More trying to drop that nasty burden of proof, please, if you think you're right and you have facts on your side, then provide them. But stop trying to shift your burden to other people.

5) Sorry, the Links above on stolen SSN's is correct that the majority of stolen SSN's go to illegal immigrants who purchase them, or are given to them. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/05/nyreg ... =nyregion.. The majority of illegals actually partake in identity theft of the persons SSN, or sometimes their entire identity. And lets not for get that this is also Tax Fraud ppl. It is also employment fraud as well...

Yeah, let's also not forget "ppl" that at one time it was illegal for "colored people" to drink from a white mans fountain. The point: just because it's a law, doesn't mean it's a just law. Would you right now support segregation laws, just because they're laws? If you answer is anything other than yes, then you're going to have to drop this idea that, just because it's illegal it's wrong.

6) Advocating for illegal aliens is like advocating illegal activity, credit fraud, tax fraud, employment fraud, health care fraud, federal crime, taxpayers should foot the bill for these peoples live ectra..

Advocating to deport all illegal aliens is like advocating for the Nazi's, KKK, Skin Heads, communists, fascists, liberals, socialists, white supremacists... etc. See what happens when I don't have to explain anything and just make baseless false dichotomies and assertions? If your statement is true, then so is mine.

7)  100% of all illegals committed employment fraud, a Federal Crime, used someone elses SSN or a fictitious SSN, tax fraud, occupied jobs, cost the taxpayer money, received benefits off the tax payer's back. Hence, everyone of them should be arrested, tried, or simply deported..

Really? Just earlier you said "The majority of illegals actually partake in identity theft of the persons SSN" so is it 100% or the majority? Can you even keep your baseless assertions straight for one post?

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/regional/i ... D65B23519D Some interesting facts in regards to Gang activity.

Wow, 713 incidents a year for a city with a population over 8 million people. Not to mention that it doesn't say at all how many of these incidents are perpetrated by illegal immigrants, what kind of incidents made up the incidents (like how many were graffiti, violent crimes, marijuana possession... etc.).

9)  http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/05/nyreg ... f=nyregion
http://www.heritage.org/Research/immigration/bg2069.cfm

Damn, I want free college too!

Then do the same thing... also please don't cite the Heritage Foundation, the place has had almost everything they produce discredited beyond all credibility.

10 ) http://personalinsure.about.com/b/2007/ ... grants.htm

Damn I want free health care too!

Legal and natural citizens get free health care also! So use it!

Seriously, if you people want to stick your head in the sand, don't be surprised when the problem becomes overwhelmingly impossible to handle.. This reminds me how we failed to prevent our jobs from being shipped over seas because we mindlessly purchase cheap foreign slave labor imports while trying to blame the corps for trying to compete and stay in business. Our failure to control the demand of what we purchase, and why we purchase is exactly why we failed to control the job market and where the jobs are. Demand controls the market, not the Corps that are slave to the need of your demand. And yes, the big bad corps will take advantage of that if you let them.

I'm trying not to "stick [my] head in the sand" but you apparently want us to. Instead of pointing to the data where you get all this confident knowledge from, you want us to just accept what you say. That is more about sticking ones head in the sand than is looking for the evidence.

So I really do hope Arizona gets even tougher on illegal immigration..

You're opinion, mine is different.

Take away the jobs, free health care, free education by strict enforcement and we won't need to worry about them crossing the boarder anymore because there won't be anything here for them to take advantage of.

The jobs will never go away, a lot of them pay way less than any legal citizen would accept.

At that point the only ones you need to worry about are the drug gangs, and drug runners. All Arizona needs to do is make good is to prosecuting school, and businesses, enforce positive ID checks employment, and refuse medical services to illegals.. It would cost us less in the long run to enforce these big 3 key elements because eventually it would become a non-issue.

All possibly good suggestions, why do you think this will work?

I do have an exception to this statement though: "refuse medical services to illegals." Do we check the ID of someone who's been stabbed after being mugged? His wallet stolen, no way to prove he's a legal resident, better just dump him into an alley to finish dying.

However, I wouldn't mind expanding on helping a controlled flow of legal immigrants succeed here in the States.. Legal immigrants at the very least show an effort to want to be legal, and want to be a contributing member of our society. People that pull their own weight are those who we want to immigrate here. And we should be strictly selective of who we allow to be here from foreign nations and who we don't allow to be here. Otherwise we may as well not even bother defending ourselves if China for example came over to take us over, we could just toss our hands in the air and call it immigration.

Many illegal immigrants have also shown an effort, but often the cost is too high for the pay they make in their country, but the pay they make in the U.S. may just allow them to save enough to pay for the immigration services. Maybe the problem isn't the illegal immigrants, but the naturalization process.

[Davin]

My point, from the beginning, is that the post by Jackel was, on the whole, with some merit. And it is, regardless of what we've said here. I will let him support his own argument, as he is doing already.

I really have to disagree very strongly here: TheJackal keeps trying to drop the burden of proof onto other people (explained in my previous post), is using condescending language (like: "it's not hard to validate that the fact" and "if you people want to stick your head in the sand") and is providing links to things that are either bad sources or not related. I read those whole links and research them only to find out they're useless. It wastes my time and that is very rude to begin with, when he should vett his sources before posting them.

Pointing out that someone needs evidence to support their positive claims should be standard. Speculation is fine, but statements like "if you people want to stick your head in the sand" is a long ways away from the person thinking they're just speculating, because the statement means that if you don't see it the way he see's then we're willingly ignoring the evidence. When there is no evidence.

[Sophus]

Looks like it's my turn to chime in but I rather like the way Davin's handled this so far. Nothing else to add just yet.  

[McQ]

My point, from the beginning, is that the post by Jackel was, on the whole, with some merit. And it is, regardless of what we've said here. I will let him support his own argument, as he is doing already.

I really have to disagree very strongly here: TheJackal keeps trying to drop the burden of proof onto other people (explained in my previous post), is using condescending language (like: "it's not hard to validate that the fact" and "if you people want to stick your head in the sand") and is providing links to things that are either bad sources or not related. I read those whole links and research them only to find out they're useless. It wastes my time and that is very rude to begin with, when he should vett his sources before posting them.

Pointing out that someone needs evidence to support their positive claims should be standard. Speculation is fine, but statements like "if you people want to stick your head in the sand" is a long ways away from the person thinking they're just speculating, because the statement means that if you don't see it the way he see's then we're willingly ignoring the evidence. When there is no evidence.

Probably best to direct this at The Jackel then. I already said I'm letting support his own arguments. I hear what your saying here though.

[McQ]

rejecting an argument for lack of evidence is hardly visceral

as it's obvious now that being skeptical of unsupported arguments is going to be addressed as emotional response here, by a mod, I've nothing else to say on this or any other subject

Wow. This is absolutely unfair. I am in this thread as a forum member, just like you, with the right to post my thoughts like anyone else here. In no way have I acted in a capacity as a moderator. I also apologized to you directly for the very thing you seemed to be offended by and you've chosen to ignore it. Fine. You don't have to accept an apology, but you seem to have gone out of your way to ignore it and several other clarification points I've made.

You may not agree with me in this thread, but I have not threatened you or pulled out my Mod Badge. You have conflated arguments and misrepresented me and what I've been trying to say as well. Everyone loses when this happens, because you will now continue to assume the worst and miss out on opportunities to find common ground. That's just a waste. And before this thread becomes hijacked any further, that's the last I'll say on the issue. Any further posts on this problem should be made via PM.

Now let's get back to Arizona's immigration law, please.  

[TheJackel]

If they were facts.

Ahh that's because they are facts, and playing the I'm intentionally ignorant game isn't winning you brownie points here. If you are unable to realize that when someone crosses the border and they need a JOB, they will indeed need a SSN to which they will use in regards to everything they do here.. Thus everything they do is committing federal crimes, or fraud. So it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know what is going on here. And like I said, if you need further proof, I suggest you actually do some of your own real research.

Prove your positive claim or concede that it's speculation.

Here is a starting point for you, visit your own state prisons and ask some questions.. If you think I am going to drag you around the Nation to touch, see, and smell everyone of them so you can feel satisfied, you are deluding yourself. All it takes is a bit of research, and you seemingly won't except anyone else's research.. So perhaps it's time that you give yourself a reality check and do your own digging.

No, I made no such attempt, I made an attempt at getting you to have an honest argument.

If you have done your own research vs jumping out and stating my arguments are dishonest, you wouldn't be making this comment.

I clearly stated violent crimes.

This is irrelevant because the focus was never on just violent crimes.. And, these only add to the pile of crimes listed.. Nor does your argument here excuse any crime committed.

Good logic, if one law were unjust we might as well just not have any laws at all. Nope, I disagree.

Oh so now we go into claiming federal crimes are "unjust" to support one's argument? You seriously are going to try and claim that SSN theft, credit fraud, employment fraud, Identity theft, ectra are now all magically unjust laws? I guess we should not even bother protecting ourselves. Maybe we should just all leave our homes and jobs and just hand them over.. Your argument is completely illogical, this isn't about some dumb law that states you can't wear red shoes or something..

Lot's of legal and native citizens do steal identities as well as people that don't even step a foot in this country. Is there more from illegal immigrants?

That wasn't the question. And that argument once again is irrelevant.. I can say lots of legals might steal identities to sell to illegals, criminals, ectra... That doesn't neglect that 1 million per 1 million illegals do not have legal SSN's, or identities... Do the math, or at least google SSN's being sold.

Not even if the guy were water boating got into an accident and the U.S. had a closer hospital and the guy can and would pay his medical bill but didn't have his passport or green card? Not even if zeh Germans are torturing and killing the Jews and made emigration illegal? Sounds like an illogical absolute stance.

Now you are playing circular games while knowing that my point is about illegal aliens living here illegally and has nothing to do with helping some guy who gets into an accident and requires assistance.. In this case you help him get well, deport him, and then bill him for the medical expenses. And German torture camp thing is used like candy by people crossing the border as a false argument to support their cause. Now if such a thing were true, I can see granting an asylum, and maybe giving him legal status.

You're going to have to explain how the census counts as voting and manipulating the Government, not just state it.

Here again you lack the ability to do your own research.. How many illegals live here in the United States? Ahh, we get those numbers how? Have you bothered to call state, or government, or even the INS? And the counts are done by counting the ballots that have duplicate SSN's, and fictitious SSN's belonging to illegal immigrants to whom make up the mass majority of those numbers. Again you can feel free to do your own research.

So instead of you providing something for your argument your just dodging it and trying to place the burden on other people... where have I seen this tactic before? Making a positive claim without evidence then trying to shift the burden of proof...

I'm not dodging at all, you will apparently ignore any link, or information I can provide you over the internet, or any study or research that has been done in order to support your position. Thus, I have given you options and a means to do your own research. Thus, the only dodger here is you, because the sources I provided are valid and logical sources for you to explore.

More trying to drop that nasty burden of proof, please, if you think you're right and you have facts on your side, then provide them. But stop trying to shift your burden to other people.

Again you are dodging and playing a circular game. Have you contacted your school board, government and state sources? If the links I provided you are not evidence for you, then you need to actually take the time and investigate when you are being entirely dismissive of any other information provided. You can start by calling the obvious places like California's School Districts, Local State government Offices, INS, IRS, and even the local police departments and prison systems.  

Yeah, let's also not forget "ppl" that at one time it was illegal for "colored people" to drink from a white mans fountain. The point: just because it's a law, doesn't mean it's a just law. Would you right now support segregation laws, just because they're laws? If you answer is anything other than yes, then you're going to have to drop this idea that, just because it's illegal it's wrong.

Oh how offensive this is considering I'm not a white man! Tossing out the race card to support your argument is pathetic, and I greatly take offense to that. The Federal Laws concerning SSN's, and fraud, and other crimes associated with ID theft ectra are not racially bias, or unjust laws! Why kind of insane argument are you trying to make here? These laws are designed to protect everyone and not just some little group of white men.. And no, we don't have to drop the idea that just because it's illegal that it's wrong, especially in this argument..

Advocating to deport all illegal aliens is like advocating for the Nazi's, KKK, Skin Heads, communists, fascists, liberals, socialists, white supremacists... etc. See what happens when I don't have to explain anything and just make baseless false dichotomies and assertions? If your statement is true, then so is mine.

What a load of crap, and here you are trying to dishonestly play a sympathy game for when these illegals made the choice to come here illegally.. We did not make this choice for them to commit these crimes, or to jump the fence. Your argument is like blaming a legal teenage girl for X illegal jumping the fence and breaking his leg, and then expecting her to give him her SSN, identity, her job,  and pay for his broken leg, all while letting him vote in her elections.. Good luck with that argument..

Really? Just earlier you said "The majority of illegals actually partake in identity theft of the persons SSN" so is it 100% or the majority? Can you even keep your baseless assertions straight for one post?

Majority being true, and that is because there is a percentage of fictitious SSN's.. Not every illegal has someone else's number, but they are all committing fraud, and federal crimes. Identity theft is just one of several federal crimes they commit. As I had stated earlier in one of my responses, and clearly shown in the voting consensus that tallies ficticious, stolen, or purchased SSN's.. And you can't blame millions of ficticious, stolen, or purchased SSN's on common criminals considering they still have the right to vote regardless if they are in prison or running from the law. So where do you think these SSN's go? It's surely not Santa's little elves.  

Wow, 713 incidents a year for a city with a population over 8 million people. Not to mention that it doesn't say at all how many of these incidents are perpetrated by illegal immigrants, what kind of incidents made up the incidents (like how many were graffiti, violent crimes, marijuana possession... etc.).

Fair enough, so I will provide more specific information:

http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impacts_ ... gangs.html
http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=37374
http://www.cis.org/articles/2008/gangrelease.html
http://www.examiner.com/x-2684-Law-Enfo ... ting-in-US
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/06/05/do ... index.html
http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/illegal-gangs.html
http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_t ... alien.html

Heck, I can list thousands of links for you. I in fact got 1,300,000 results from just a google search of illegal immigrant gangs, and I am not about to sit here and list them all for you.

Damn, I want free college too!

Then do the same thing... also please don't cite the Heritage Foundation, the place has had almost everything they produce discredited beyond all credibility.
[/quote]
A: Illegals shouldn't have any access to these
B: I am legal citizen and should have access to these
C: I don't qualify, as most Americans do not qualify or ever receive a free college education
 

10 ) http://personalinsure.about.com/b/2007/ ... grants.htm

Legal and natural citizens get free health care also! So use it!

A: I don't qualify
B: Illegals should have no access to this and should pay for any costs they put forth to us.. If I have to pay a 500 dollar ride to the hospital, so should the illegal alien that breaks his leg jumping the fence, gets hurt, or even ill while being across our border..
C: These are things we provide for legals who can't afford health care, and it's basic health care to which has nothing to do with having to take a trip to the hospital ectra.. A poor American woman who gives birth will be expected to pay for her stay in the hospital, and yet an illegal walks out the door expecting someone like that poor American woman giving birth to incur this her illegal immigrant costs.


I will finish replying to the rest after work.. Cheers.

[pinkocommie]

I would just like to interject that I was very poor when I gave birth to my son and all of the medical costs were in fact paid for by the state.  I had serious complications with my birth and ended up having to stay in the hospital longer than normal, plus have several procedures done that were not planned for, and I still was never expected to pay.  I had an emergency C-section which re-opened after I went home, causing me to have to go to the doctor every other day for a few weeks to have the incision packed with gauze and cauterized, and I was never expected to pay for these visits either.

I think this is why I'm not terribly swayed by TheJackel's arguments in this particular case - I can plainly see misinformation being spread.  That's why these posts seem more of an emotional plea than anything and makes me distrust the source.

[McQ]

I would just like to interject that I was very poor when I gave birth to my son and all of the medical costs were in fact paid for by the state.  I had serious complications with my birth and ended up having to stay in the hospital longer than normal, plus have several procedures done that were not planned for, and I still was never expected to pay.  I had an emergency C-section which re-opened after I went home, causing me to have to go to the doctor every other day for a few weeks to have the incision packed with gauze and cauterized, and I was never expected to pay for these visits either.

I think this is why I'm not terribly swayed by TheJackel's arguments in this particular case - I can plainly see misinformation being spread.  That's why these posts seem more of an emotional plea than anything and makes me distrust the source.

I'm glad you were able to have cost of serious care covered, Pinko. Much of the problem with health coverage in the US for poverty level families and individuals is that they are not aware of what access they do have. Sadly though, it still looks like the poorer you are, the worse your medical treatment is overall.

[Davin]

Ahh that's because they are facts, and playing the I'm intentionally ignorant game isn't winning you brownie points here. If you are unable to realize that when someone crosses the border and they need a JOB, they will indeed need a SSN to which they will use in regards to everything they do here.. Thus everything they do is committing federal crimes, or fraud. So it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know what is going on here. And like I said, if you need further proof, I suggest you actually do some of your own real research.

Just calling them facts, doesn't make them facts. And like I said, don't shift your burden of proof off onto the people your talking to, when you make a positive claim, you bring the evidence.

Here is a starting point for you, visit your own state prisons and ask some questions.. If you think I am going to drag you around the Nation to touch, see, and smell everyone of them so you can feel satisfied, you are deluding yourself. All it takes is a bit of research, and you seemingly won't except anyone else's research.. So perhaps it's time that you give yourself a reality check and do your own digging.

Here it is again: if you make a claim, you support it. How about this: "illegal immigrants increase the standard of living for the middle class, if you want proof then do the research."

If you have done your own research vs jumping out and stating my arguments are dishonest, you wouldn't be making this comment.

If you're not providing evidence for your speculations and call them "facts" then you're being dishonest. If you say that the responsibility for providing evidence for your claims is on the people questioning you, that's dishonest. If you're stating that those who don't see the world how you see it are just ignoring the issues, then you're being dishonest.

I clearly stated violent crimes.

This is irrelevant because the focus was never on just violent crimes.. And, these only add to the pile of crimes listed.. Nor does your argument here excuse any crime committed.

So no one is able to talk anything other than you want to talk about? That's kind of disingenuous if you will only talk about the points you want to cover.

NO EXCUSES! Otherwise we should just legalize federal crimes?

Good logic, if one law were unjust we might as well just not have any laws at all. Nope, I disagree.

Oh so now we go into claiming federal crimes are "unjust" to support one's argument? You seriously are going to try and claim that SSN theft, credit fraud, employment fraud, Identity theft, ectra are now all magically unjust laws? I guess we should not even bother protecting ourselves. Maybe we should just all leave our homes and jobs and just hand them over.. Your argument is completely illogical, this isn't about some dumb law that states you can't wear red shoes or something..

I was pointing out that you're statement was irrational. Now instead of listening to what I said, you're putting words into my mouth, creating a straw man and using dishonest argument tactics. Just stop and be honest.

Lot's of legal and native citizens do steal identities as well as people that don't even step a foot in this country. Is there more from illegal immigrants?

That wasn't the question. And that argument once again is irrelevant.. I can say lots of legals might steal identities to sell to illegals, criminals, ectra... That doesn't neglect that 1 million per 1 million illegals do not have legal SSN's, or identities... Do the math, or at least google SSN's being sold.

Wow, you never provide evidence for your claims, and keep asking everyone else to do the work for you.

2) Not a single illegal immigrant should be here PERIOD! NO EXCUSES!.

Not even if the guy were water boating got into an accident and the U.S. had a closer hospital and the guy can and would pay his medical bill but didn't have his passport or green card? Not even if zeh Germans are torturing and killing the Jews and made emigration illegal? Sounds like an illogical absolute stance.

Now you are playing circular games while knowing that my point is about illegal aliens living here illegally and has nothing to do with helping some guy who gets into an accident and requires assistance.. In this case you help him get well, deport him, and then bill him for the medical expenses. And German torture camp thing is used like candy by people crossing the border as a false argument to support their cause. Now if such a thing were true, I can see granting an asylum, and maybe giving him legal status.

How am I playing circular games when I've made just one reply post to you? You're the one who made an absolute statement PERIOD! NO EXCUSES!. Now you're adjusting your absolute statement because I pointed it out, good job, but maybe you shouldn't have made the absolute statement in the first place.

You're going to have to explain how the census counts as voting and manipulating the Government, not just state it.

Here again you lack the ability to do your own research.. How many illegals live here in the United States? Ahh, we get those numbers how? Have you bothered to call state, or government, or even the INS? And the counts are done by counting the ballots that have duplicate SSN's, and fictitious SSN's belonging to illegal immigrants to whom make up the mass majority of those numbers. Again you can feel free to do your own research.

Once again you're trying to shift the burden of proof onto other people for your claims. Without even answering (even with just speculation), how the census counts as voting and manipulating the Government.

So instead of you providing something for your argument your just dodging it and trying to place the burden on other people... where have I seen this tactic before? Making a positive claim without evidence then trying to shift the burden of proof...

I'm not dodging at all, you will apparently ignore any link, or information I can provide you over the internet, or any study or research that has been done in order to support your position. Thus, I have given you options and a means to do your own research. Thus, the only dodger here is you, because the sources I provided are valid and logical sources for you to explore.

I didn't ignore the links, I wasted time reading them and researching them. If the links don't support what you're saying when you link them, then it's your fault.

More trying to drop that nasty burden of proof, please, if you think you're right and you have facts on your side, then provide them. But stop trying to shift your burden to other people.

Again you are dodging and playing a circular game. Have you contacted your school board, government and state sources? If the links I provided you are not evidence for you, then you need to actually take the time and investigate when you are being entirely dismissive of any other information provided. You can start by calling the obvious places like California's School Districts, Local State government Offices, INS, IRS, and even the local police departments and prison systems.

It's not a circular game it's the standard of evidence. I'd really have no problem if you said that your conclusions are just mere speculation and that you don't have any reasonable evidence to back it up and other people may come to a different conclusion based on the little evidence you provided. Really, just stop saying that people that disagree with your baseless assertions are ignoring the evidence, when you're not providing any.k

Yeah, let's also not forget "ppl" that at one time it was illegal for "colored people" to drink from a white mans fountain. The point: just because it's a law, doesn't mean it's a just law. Would you right now support segregation laws, just because they're laws? If you answer is anything other than yes, then you're going to have to drop this idea that, just because it's illegal it's wrong.

Oh how offensive this is considering I'm not a white man! Tossing out the race card to support your argument is pathetic, and I greatly take offense to that. The Federal Laws concerning SSN's, and fraud, and other crimes associated with ID theft ectra are not racially bias, or unjust laws! Why kind of insane argument are you trying to make here? These laws are designed to protect everyone and not just some little group of white men.. And no, we don't have to drop the idea that just because it's illegal that it's wrong, especially in this argument..

I wasn't tossing the race card at all, I was tossing the "unjust laws should be changed" card into the mix, but if you want to get all racist on my ass then go ahead. The other point is, "just because it's illegal, doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong." But go ahead and use my example of "people peaceably being civilly disobedient in order to change unjust laws" into something racial that you get offended by. Go ahead, try to drop this example showing you that your absolutes are irrational. That by the way, is another dishonest argument tactic.

Advocating to deport all illegal aliens is like advocating for the Nazi's, KKK, Skin Heads, communists, fascists, liberals, socialists, white supremacists... etc. See what happens when I don't have to explain anything and just make baseless false dichotomies and assertions? If your statement is true, then so is mine.

What a load of crap, and here you are trying to dishonestly play a sympathy game for when these illegals made the choice to come here illegally.. We did not make this choice for them to commit these crimes, or to jump the fence. Your argument is like blaming a legal teenage girl for X illegal jumping the fence and breaking his leg, and then expecting her to give him her SSN, identity, her job,  and pay for his broken leg, all while letting him vote in her elections.. Good luck with that argument..

I'm just providing an equal statement, supported by equal evidence, being equally offensive to the statement you made. So you accept my statement as "fact" like you want us to accept your statement. We both get to play by the same rules. If you make baseless assertions and state that they're "facts", then I get to as well and you have no way of disregarding my statements without applying the same rules to your own statements (thereby you refuting yourself).

Really? Just earlier you said "The majority of illegals actually partake in identity theft of the persons SSN" so is it 100% or the majority? Can you even keep your baseless assertions straight for one post?

Majority being true, and that is because there is a percentage of fictitious SSN's.. Not every illegal has someone else's number, but they are all committing fraud, and federal crimes. Identity theft is just one of several federal crimes they commit. As I had stated earlier in one of my responses, and clearly shown in the voting consensus that tallies ficticious, stolen, or purchased SSN's..

Good job, now you just need to provide some kind of evidence for your statement that the majority have SSN's, or just say that's it's made up.

Wow, 713 incidents a year for a city with a population over 8 million people. Not to mention that it doesn't say at all how many of these incidents are perpetrated by illegal immigrants, what kind of incidents made up the incidents (like how many were graffiti, violent crimes, marijuana possession... etc.).

Fair enough, so I will provide more specific information:

http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impacts_ ... gangs.html
Roughly half the links are dead on this article, none of the rest are facts, just links to other articles that don't have facts... but some of them link to other articles that don't have facts, but links to other articles.

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=37374
Now I may not be a math wiz here, but 12 rapes committed by illegal aliens out of 461,620 seems kind of low. I'm not saying there isn't a problem, I'm just saying that; when you've been stabbed in your chest and you have a scrape on your knee, you should focus on the stab wound first.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2008/gangrelease.html
Here's some wrongness here:

25-50% of all gangsters arrested in northern and western Virginia are estimated to be deportable aliens.  Gang investigators estimate that 90% of the members of MS-13, the most notorious immigrant gang, are illegal aliens.

25-50% is a huge margin of error, way to big to be taken seriously. And "Gang investigators" is just an appeal to an unknown, uncredited authority.

Otherwise if you cut out all the "authority x estimates that y" crap out of the article it's not that bad, biased, but not too bad.



71% of the gang members arrested, were arrested for EWI or Entry Without Inspection. While 4% of them are LPR or Lawful Permanent Resident. While this is interesting it mostly covers data for one gang (MS-13), and doesn't provide any details of the crimes these illegal immigrants are committing.

http://www.examiner.com/x-2684-Law-Enfo ... ting-in-US
Ok, so it's hard for government agents to categorize and define gangs, this doesn't have anything to do with what and how many crimes are being committed by illegal immigrants.

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/06/05/do ... index.html
Awesome, yet again no specifics other than a majority of some gangs are foreign born (doesn't mean illegal immigrant) and there are an estimated amount of gang members higher than the amount of state and local police.

http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/illegal-gangs.html
Wow seriously? This whole article is based on unfounded speculation, and the only source they have is the D.C.'s law enforcement website's description of the Mexican Mafia? Ridiculous, huge waste of my time.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_t ... alien.html
About 20 pages of fluff and speculation, yet another huge waste of my time.

Heck, I can list thousands of links for you..

I'm sure you could just find thousands of random links that have nothing to do with the topic at hand... but that's not what I'm asking for. This thing about posting random links that provide hardly any specifics at all (unfounded or not), doesn't help you at all and it's extremely rude.

Damn, I want free college too!

Then do the same thing... also please don't cite the Heritage Foundation, the place has had almost everything they produce discredited beyond all credibility.

A: Illegals shouldn't have any access to these
B: I am legal citizen and should have access to these
C: I don't qualify, as most Americans do not qualify or ever receive a free college education

The article you cited said nothing of free college. It stated some financial aid, but not free college. Just call it what it is, some financial support and I don't have a problem with not supporting an illegal immigrants pursuit of higher education, but I wouldn't say it's free when it's not.
 

10 ) http://personalinsure.about.com/b/2007/ ... grants.htm

Legal and natural citizens get free health care also! So use it!

A: I don't qualify
B: Illegals should have no access to this and should pay for any costs they put forth to us.. If I have to pay a 500 dollar ride to the hospital, so should the illegal alien that breaks his leg jumping the fence, hurt, or ill while being across our border..
C: These are things we provide for legals who can't afford health care, and it's basic health care to which has nothing to do with having to take a trip to the hospital ectra.. A poor American woman who gives birth will be expected to pay for her stay in the hospital, and yet an illegal walks out the door expecting someone like that poor American woman giving birth to incur this illegal immigrants costs.

A: Illegal immigrants don't qualify either
B: I see, if you have to do something then everyone else should have to do it too
C: There are free clinics

[i_am_i]

I'll agree that there shouldn't be any illegal immigrants here. My reasoning for this is that if there were no illegal immigrants here that would mean that our boarders are secure, and these days that is really, really important. We're fighting this bogus war on terrorism in the middle east and yet at the same time anyone with the wherewithal or determination can get into this country and move about undetected. Now that's just just plain stupid.

Meanwhile there are a hell of a lot of illegal immigrants already here. For all I know the man who takes care of my yard and the woman who cleans my house, both hard-working Mexicans with families, are here illegally. Now these are people I trust and respect, they're almost a part of the family and they are certainly my friends. I hate the idea of them being harshly dealt with.

Really, I just don't know what else to say, except that it's wrong to make sweeping generalizations about human beings. If we can all calm down and try to approach this from a position of basic respect for humanity then we'll be in a much better position to deal with this problem, in my opinion.

[pinkocommie]

I'll agree that there shouldn't be any illegal immigrants here. My reasoning for this is that if there were no illegal immigrants here that would mean that our boarders are secure, and these days that is really, really important. We're fighting this bogus war on terrorism in the middle east and yet at the same time anyone with the wherewithal or determination can get into this country and move about undetected. Now that's just just plain stupid.

Meanwhile there are a hell of a lot of illegal immigrants already here. For all I know the man who takes care of my yard and the woman who cleans my house, both hard-working Mexicans with families, are here illegally. Now these are people I trust and respect, they're almost a part of the family and they are certainly my friends. I hate the idea of them being harshly dealt with.

Really, I just don't know what else to say, except that it's wrong to make sweeping generalizations about human beings. If we can all calm down and try to approach this from a position of basic respect for humanity then we'll be in a much better position to deal with this problem, in my opinion.

Well put.

[TheJackel]

Just calling them facts, doesn't make them facts. And like I said, don't shift your burden of proof off onto the people your talking to, when you make a positive claim, you bring the evidence.

No they are fact because I have done my own research to know very well that they are indeed pretty damn accurate. Hence, the specifics you are looking for is not going to be readily available on the internet and requires you to actually get off your tuff and makes some phone calls. I didn't shift the burden of proof on you, I told you how you can acquire the evidence yourself.. Don't get upset because you are to lazy to face reality.. Your argument is like I can't prove to you that a building was built without giving you the blue prints to which you can't access online.. You have to go to local state government to get them.. And most of your arguments really show how disconnected you are to what really goes on in this country.  

Here it is again: if you make a claim, you support it. How about this: "illegal immigrants increase the standard of living for the middle class, if you want proof then do the research."

So do prison inmates that do community service. Your argument here is entirely irrelevant, and the Legal citizens and immigrants do that as well... You may as well try and make the argument that someone who was a firefighter to whom commits a federal crime of ID theft should magically set free with impunity to any charges or accountability for his crimes. That is how silly your argument is. Damn, we may as well make fraud and ID theft legal because someone might otherwise be contributing by making us burgers as Mc Donald's or working on a cure for aids... Absolutely ridiculous argument, and you make that argument as if Legal citizens can't possibly increase their own standards of living without illegal immigrants..

If you're not providing evidence for your speculations and call them "facts" then you're being dishonest. If you say that the responsibility for providing evidence for your claims is on the people questioning you, that's dishonest. If you're stating that those who don't see the world how you see it are just ignoring the issues, then you're being dishonest.

Wrong, you simply just assume any evidence provided is magically false without even attempting contact the places I told you where you can get such information from.. And the funny part is, you know I'm right, and I know I am right because I have contacted, and discussed these things with my local government offices, INS, IRS, School boards, and police departments.. I actually go to town meetings ectra.. And it doesn't take much effort to call these places in California, Texas, Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico, Boston, or Florida to where these problems are at their worst.

So no one is able to talk anything other than you want to talk about? That's kind of disingenuous if you will only talk about the points you want to cover.

What? Nobody stated you couldn't.. Hence, I am looking at the big picture or the whole picture and not just one segment of it.. You on the other hand just want to continue to make counter arguments to excuse the illegality of illegal immigrants and the Federal crimes they commit.. You essentially slap those who come here legally in the face, and those who make a genuine effort to earn their citizen ship without committing Fraud, or federal crimes. And the funny thing is, legal immigrants can't stand illegal immigrants for the very same reasons, and that is because they too have to put up with ID theft, and pay for these fence jumpers looking to receive a free hand out on the backs of everyone else..  

I was pointing out that you're statement was irrational. Now instead of listening to what I said, you're putting words into my mouth, creating a straw man and using dishonest argument tactics. Just stop and be honest.

Ahh the back peddle, and then the claim to irrationality to cover that up. Seriously, I am hardly being irrational vs being blunt. And I have no idea where you get the notion that my argument on legality, and federal crime has anything to do with creating straw man arguments, or dishonest tactics.  My argument is pretty sound when it comes to the legality of this issue, and why your are trying to argue yourself around legality with circular arguments to magically give a free pass to federal crimes, ID theft, credit fraud, and employment fraud.. The only one creating straw man arguments is you at this point.

Wow, you never provide evidence for your claims, and keep asking everyone else to do the work for you.

Every single illegal immigrant is empirical evidence of those claims.. They all have either false documents, ID's, SSN's, stolen SSN's, Purchased SSN's, or Ficticious SSN's.. They all have committed Tax fraud, credit fraud, employment fraud, or a Federal crime.. They are all here illegally... End of Story! Hence, if they were legal they wouldn't be illegal would they?.. It only takes commonsense to even understand this, and what the implications and consequences are, and you simply expect America to foot the bill and suck it up!  Sorry but the silver spoon needs to be tossed in the trashcan. Arizona is doing the right thing, to slowly take away the jobs, schooling, anker baby, or any other means to which illegals take advantage of.. Once that is all taken away, we won't have to worry about this argument anymore because if there isn't anything here for them, they simply won't come here illegally anymore. The buck has to stop somewhere! And that beats having to put troops at the border.

How am I playing circular games when I've made just one reply post to you? You're the one who made an absolute statement PERIOD! NO EXCUSES!. Now you're adjusting your absolute statement because I pointed it out, good job, but maybe you shouldn't have made the absolute statement in the first place.

Trying to infuse the Hitler or Nazi fascists argument into the mix is playing circular games, and is entirely dishonest. And my absolute statement was always directed at illegal aliens jumping to borders to come here illegally by intention and had nothing to do with random accidents or extenuating circumstances, and you know it. Thus, you are playing circular arguments.

"TheJackel"

You're going to have to explain how the census counts as voting and manipulating the Government, not just state it.

Once again you're trying to shift the burden of proof onto other people for your claims. Without even answering (even with just speculation), how the census counts as voting and manipulating the Government.

Again you are wrong.. You reject any information I do provide, and you don't bother to google any information to which is contrary to your argument, or bother to follow through with the options of actually researching it yourself. I am not shifting the burden of proof, I am advocating that you get off your butt and make some simple calls.. You want to know how the IRS, INS, or the Census Bureau get their facts and statistics, you need to contact them!  

Here, I will help you get started by directing you to the Census Bureau Website, with 10 pages of PDF documents on illegal immigrants.. And what you can't find on their site, you can call them!

http://search.census.gov/search?q=illeg ... s&access=p

I didn't ignore the links, I wasted time reading them and researching them. If the links don't support what you're saying when you link them, then it's your fault.

Ahh, actually they do.. They only way you get multi-million undocumented votes, SSN's, ectra is via illegal aliens.. All illegal aliens have committed fraud, and federal crimes. Sorry, but you need to deal with that. Perhaps you also need to visit the local ER, or Hospital in Arizona, or California to where illegal aliens go and get free health care.. You aren't going to find all the empirical evidence on the internet.. Your basic argument is deny it all while knowing what I am telling you is not incorrect. Thus the basic points are as follows:

1) 100% are all illegal
2) 100% are all undocumented
3) 100% all either have ficticious SSN's, stolen SSN's, or purchased SSN's
4) Illegal aliens do in fact VOTE!
5) 100% all have committed employment fraud
6) 100% all have committed tax fraud
7) 100% all have committed a Federal Crime
100% all have cost us taxpayers money jumping the fence
9) Thousands commit further crime, and thousands are in our prison system
10) Illegal immigrant Gangs pose a big problem, and an ever increasing problem
11) 100% have all committed credit fraud (just by using fake ID's or SSN's to open bank accounts, or to even have cable TV)
13) Every American that has their ID stolen by an illegal immigrant goes through hell trying to rectify it, and it costs them money, time, and stress.. Many have their entire credit history destroyed and end up paying for it.  
14) all of these are valid reasons to deport, make it absolutely illegal to hire them, or take away any benefits they could possibly capitalize on by levying hefty fines on businesses, banks, or schools for having them.. These should receive benefits for having legal immigrants to give incentives to not just the schools, banks, and businesses, but to legal immigrants that come here through the proper channels..

It's not a circular game it's the standard of evidence. I'd really have no problem if you said that your conclusions are just mere speculation and that you don't have any reasonable evidence to back it up and other people may come to a different conclusion based on the little evidence you provided. Really, just stop saying that people that disagree with your baseless assertions are ignoring the evidence, when you're not providing any.k

Wrong because I have all those sources to back me up! Hence, I have called and contacted many of these places, and I have yet to have one not concur to my overall assessment.. If you want to just disagree with me that is up to you, but if you really want to challenge me, I dare you to even call the INS, or just one of California's main school districts ectra.. Hell, call the IRS on figures for the last election in regards to this issue.. Like I said, the problem with your argument is that the evidence you so specifically want can only be accessed by contacting them. Or if you are lucky, you can find some of it buried in millions of links concerning illegal immigrants.. The only thing I see you doing is you just trying to find a way to ignore the problems or to simply excuse or dismiss the problems.

I wasn't tossing the race card at all, I was tossing the "unjust laws should be changed" card into the mix, but if you want to get all racist on my ass then go ahead. The other point is, "just because it's illegal, doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong." But go ahead and use my example of "people peaceably being civilly disobedient in order to change unjust laws"

Again these Federal laws are not unjust laws, and these illegal immigrants have no right to be here to demand any laws be change or even legislated. And committing Fraud, ID theft, or Federal crimes is not an act of civility. Expecting others to pay for your life is not civility, it's selfish arrogance.. Hence, you actually think the laws that protect our Identities, and lives are some how magically unjust? What a load of crap that is!.

into something racial that you get offended by. Go ahead, try to drop this example showing you that your absolutes are irrational. That by the way, is another dishonest argument tactic.

There should have been no racial context or unintended context to begin with.. When you start tossing things like the KKK, Nazis, ectra around, you are essentially playing the card.. I suggest you refrain from doing so! Because even though I am Brazilian, There are other people of other races that don't need to hear that garbage.

I'm just providing an equal statement, supported by equal evidence, being equally offensive to the statement you made. So you accept my statement as "fact" like you want us to accept your statement. We both get to play by the same rules. If you make baseless assertions and state that they're "facts", then I get to as well and you have no way of disregarding my statements without applying the same rules to your own statements (thereby you refuting yourself).

Not even remotely close to an equal statement.. Nothing I have stated is baseless assertion, I know much of this from my own circles of friends, and the fact that I have made the effort to actually find out what really goes on..

Good job, now you just need to provide some kind of evidence for your statement that the majority have SSN's, or just say that's it's made up.

And what SSN's do you suppose illegal immigrants are using? Legal ones :/

I'm sure you could just find thousands of random links that have nothing to do with the topic at hand... but that's not what I'm asking for. This thing about posting random links that provide hardly any specifics at all (unfounded or not), doesn't help you at all and it's extremely rude.

Like I said, you will simply dismiss any information I point to.. And those links were simply the first few that came up in the search engine.. And sorry, they get much of that information from law enforcement LOL.. Much of the statistics you find on these gangs come from the arrests of undocumented foreigners. The only consensus you really need to know is how many are sitting in our prisons..

Here are some old statistics
illegals in prison
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/NIFCJS.PDF
But what's really interesting is that even the 2009 and 2010 reports conveniently removed this category from their reports..

Example of Educational costs:
http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index ... _port.html


Illegal Immigrant Figures and Info from Minnesota, The state where my parents live.
http://www.state.mn.us/mn/externalDocs/ ... f%2026.pdf

Lets play the ID theft Example:
[youtube:3tjgtrsw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HKnnYLmcBI[/youtube:3tjgtrsw]

Oh how about sold SSN's for a 100 bucks.. Children's ID's

Oh hell, lets give a Stolen ID theft case example:

Oh let's watch a real investigation:
[youtube:3tjgtrsw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvZ6U3vTg3A[/youtube:3tjgtrsw]

The article you cited said nothing of free college. It stated some financial aid, but not free college. Just call it what it is, some financial support and I don't have a problem with not supporting an illegal immigrants pursuit of higher education, but I wouldn't say it's free when it's not.

There are loop holes, and no illegal immigrant should get any kind of state intuition, grants, ectra.. The following is just a first search example. And it includes scholarships.. That's right, I'm once again footing the bill for an illegals education..

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/13 ... etail.html
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/met ... 13695.html

B: No, B = no free ride to illegal immigrants!

C: These are free clinics for legal citizens paid by legal citizens.. This is only possible by local state funding! These free clinics are not there for illegal immigrants to leech from or use as their own private hospitals when the poor legal people in this country need those clinics!.. it's like stealing candy from a baby. They don't belong here, and they shouldn't even be in these clinics costing us money, and taking up resources that belong to the legal citizen!

[TheJackel]

I'll agree that there shouldn't be any illegal immigrants here. My reasoning for this is that if there were no illegal immigrants here that would mean that our boarders are secure, and these days that is really, really important. We're fighting this bogus war on terrorism in the middle east and yet at the same time anyone with the wherewithal or determination can get into this country and move about undetected. Now that's just just plain stupid.

Meanwhile there are a hell of a lot of illegal immigrants already here. For all I know the man who takes care of my yard and the woman who cleans my house, both hard-working Mexicans with families, are here illegally. Now these are people I trust and respect, they're almost a part of the family and they are certainly my friends. I hate the idea of them being harshly dealt with.

Really, I just don't know what else to say, except that it's wrong to make sweeping generalizations about human beings. If we can all calm down and try to approach this from a position of basic respect for humanity then we'll be in a much better position to deal with this problem, in my opinion.

Well put.

This is by far more rational. However, I have never claimed illegals are evil people, I am clearly stating that nobody is above reproach, or prosecution when they commit a crime.. And especially Federal crimes that deal with fraud, and ID theft.. Sorry, but that is how the cookie crumbles.. They made these choices, and I don't have any sympathy for them if they end up paying for those choices.. This is something that needs to be harshly dealt with. Otherwise you are looking at an endless cycle. It's like the Government bailout fiasco, where I was correct that once the banks got a bailout that the auto industry would beg for one..At some point you have to say NO MORE!.. And whos' SSN are these illegals using that work for you? Who's lives are they potentially destroying? Who's paying for them when they get ill or go to the hospital should they get hit by a car? Who's paying for their education? Who pays for it if they hit someone with a car?  Sorry, I don't place trust in people like this regardless of how nice they seem to be.  My parents came here legally, and they are more insulted by this than many natural born Americans are! Many illegals think they own the place, and act like they have every right to come here and freely take advantage of the American people and commit these federal crimes in order to do so. Not all feel this way, but many do!

If I had it my way, this is what I would do:

I would say give illegals 1 year to file for citizenship, and then cut everyone else off cold turkey and make it impossible to have illegals get jobs, open bank accounts, or use a fake or stolen SSN. And then Tax those that do file to pay for it all! And make them do 10 years with 10 hours a week of community service for free to pay for their Federal Crimes.. Perhaps less for fictitious SSN' users. And this would be like slapping them on the wrist.. And any illegal caught there after should be sentenced to 5 years community service while in jail so he, or she can pay for their own deportation, legal fees, ect..

Like I said about software piracy, if you want to stop it, bust everyone! You then make them do community service for free so they can understand what it means to work for free.. Just imagine how clean our streets would be

[Davin]

Just calling them facts, doesn't make them facts. And like I said, don't shift your burden of proof off onto the people your talking to, when you make a positive claim, you bring the evidence.

No they are fact because I have done my own research to know very well that they are indeed pretty damn accurate. Hence, the specifics you are looking for is not going to be readily available on the internet and requires you to actually get off your tuff and makes some phone calls. I didn't shift the burden of proof on you, I told you how you can acquire the evidence yourself.. Don't get upset because you are to lazy to face reality..

Really, I'm too lazy do you your work for you? Right.

Your argument is like I can't prove to you that a building was built without giving you the blue prints to which you can't access online.. You have to go to local state government to get them.. And most of your arguments really show how disconnected you are to what really goes on in this country.

No, my argument is like your being like the religious logic dude about the baseball:


If you have the evidence, then provide it. Anything else is shifting the burden of proof.

Here it is again: if you make a claim, you support it. How about this: "illegal immigrants increase the standard of living for the middle class, if you want proof then do the research."

So do prison inmates that do community service. Your argument here is entirely irrelevant, and the Legal citizens and immigrants do that as well... You may as well try and make the argument that someone who was a firefighter to whom commits a federal crime of ID theft should magically set free with impunity to any charges or accountability for his crimes. That is how silly your argument is. Damn, we may as well make fraud and ID theft legal because someone might otherwise be contributing by making us burgers as Mc Donald's or working on a cure for aids... Absolutely ridiculous argument, and you make that argument as if Legal citizens can't possibly increase their own standards of living without illegal immigrants..

I've made no such argument, I've only asked that you provide your evidence and pointed out your fallacies and dishonesty. This example here is showing you at least one reason why we have a burden of proof for honest debates. If you telling me to provide your evidence for you in order to see the evidence for your claims is acceptable to you, then you must also take my argument telling you that you need to provide my evidence for my claims. You can't tell me to provide your evidence for you and have me provide my evidence for me and have an honest discussion. So how do you want to play it? We provide evidence for our claims or just tell the other person to provide the evidence for our claims?

If you're not providing evidence for your speculations and call them "facts" then you're being dishonest. If you say that the responsibility for providing evidence for your claims is on the people questioning you, that's dishonest. If you're stating that those who don't see the world how you see it are just ignoring the issues, then you're being dishonest.

Wrong, you simply just assume any evidence provided is magically false without even attempting contact the places I told you where you can get such information from.. And the funny part is, you know I'm right, and I know I am right because I have contacted, and discussed these things with my local government offices, INS, IRS, School boards, and police departments.. I actually go to town meetings ectra.. And it doesn't take much effort to call these places in California, Texas, Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico, Boston, or Florida to where these problems are at their worst.

If you "know" you're right and "I know you're right," then what evidence do you have to support your rightness.

This is irrelevant because the focus was never on just violent crimes.. And, these only add to the pile of crimes listed.. Nor does your argument here excuse any crime committed.

So no one is able to talk anything other than you want to talk about? That's kind of disingenuous if you will only talk about the points you want to cover.

What? Nobody stated you couldn't.. Hence, I am looking at the big picture or the whole picture and not just one segment of it.. You on the other hand just want to continue to make counter arguments to excuse the illegality of illegal immigrants and the Federal crimes they commit.. You essentially slap those who come here legally in the face, and those who make a genuine effort to earn their citizen ship without committing Fraud, or federal crimes. And the funny thing is, legal immigrants can't stand illegal immigrants for the very same reasons, and that is because they too have to put up with ID theft, and pay for these fence jumpers looking to receive a free hand out on the backs of everyone else..

You said "This is irrelevant because the focus was never on just violent crimes." Normally this is a tactic to just disregard a point that can't be logically justified at the same time as keeping your conclusion. Just judging by your complete refusal to provide any support for your argument while at the same time claiming that anyone who disagrees with you is "too lazy" to provide your evidence for you, is just ignoring the evidence or just not as awesome as you, is good reason to suspect that that is your intention. My assumption is further supported by you not addressing my point, but going around it to some other point I didn't even make.

I was pointing out that you're statement was irrational. Now instead of listening to what I said, you're putting words into my mouth, creating a straw man and using dishonest argument tactics. Just stop and be honest.

Ahh the back peddle, and then the claim to irrationality to cover that up. Seriously, I am hardly being irrational vs being blunt. And I have no idea where you get the notion that my argument on legality, and federal crime has anything to do with creating straw man arguments, or dishonest tactics.  My argument is pretty sound when it comes to the legality of this issue, and why your are trying to argue yourself around legality with circular arguments to magically give a free pass to federal crimes, ID theft, credit fraud, and employment fraud.. The only one creating straw man arguments is you at this point.

Really? You don't see how you're creating straw mans? Because you're telling me I said or mean something other than what I said and arguing against your made up version of my argument instead of my argument. Seriously? And you think you're hardly being irrational?

Wow, you never provide evidence for your claims, and keep asking everyone else to do the work for you.

Every single illegal immigrant is empirical evidence of those claims.. They all have either false documents, ID's, SSN's, stolen SSN's, Purchased SSN's, or Ficticious SSN's.. They all have committed Tax fraud, credit fraud, employment fraud, or a Federal crime.. They are all here illegally... End of Story! Hence, if they were legal they wouldn't be illegal would they?.. It only takes commonsense to even understand this, and what the implications and consequences are, and you simply expect America to foot the bill and suck it up!  Sorry but the silver spoon needs to be tossed in the trashcan. Arizona is doing the right thing, to slowly take away the jobs, schooling, anker baby, or any other means to which illegals take advantage of.. Once that is all taken away, we won't have to worry about this argument anymore because if there isn't anything here for them, they simply won't come here illegally anymore. The buck has to stop somewhere! And that beats having to put troops at the border.

Once again; just because it's a law, doesn't make it a just law.

How am I playing circular games when I've made just one reply post to you? You're the one who made an absolute statement PERIOD! NO EXCUSES!. Now you're adjusting your absolute statement because I pointed it out, good job, but maybe you shouldn't have made the absolute statement in the first place.

Trying to infuse the Hitler or Nazi fascists argument into the mix is playing circular games, and is entirely dishonest. And my absolute statement was always directed at illegal aliens jumping to borders to come here illegally by intention and had nothing to do with random accidents or extenuating circumstances, and you know it. Thus, you are playing circular arguments.

Trying to infuse that anyone who disagrees with you supports "6) Advocating for illegal aliens is like advocating illegal activity, credit fraud, tax fraud, employment fraud, health care fraud, federal crime, taxpayers should foot the bill for these peoples live ectra.." is the same thing, that was my point. Either you accept my statement as equally valid and true as yours, or drop both our statements for the same reason.

You're going to have to explain how the census counts as voting and manipulating the Government, not just state it.

Once again you're trying to shift the burden of proof onto other people for your claims. Without even answering (even with just speculation), how the census counts as voting and manipulating the Government.

Again you are wrong.. You reject any information I do provide, and you don't bother to google any information to which is contrary to your argument, or bother to follow through with the options of actually researching it yourself. I am not shifting the burden of proof, I am advocating that you get off your butt and make some simple calls.. You want to know how the IRS, INS, or the Census Bureau get their facts and statistics, you need to contact them!

Here, I will help you get started by directing you to the Census Bureau Website, with 10 pages of PDF documents on illegal immigrants.. And what you can't find on their site, you can call them!

http://search.census.gov/search?q=illeg ... s&access=p

Ok so by your logic it's:
Step 1: Illegal immigrants use the census
Step 2: ...
Step 3: Manipulation of our government

I didn't ignore the links, I wasted time reading them and researching them. If the links don't support what you're saying when you link them, then it's your fault.

Ahh, actually they do.. They only way you get multi-million undocumented votes, SSN's, ectra is via illegal aliens.. All illegal aliens have committed fraud, and federal crimes. Sorry, but you need to deal with that. Perhaps you also need to visit the local ER, or Hospital in Arizona, or California to where illegal aliens go and get free health care.. You aren't going to find all the empirical evidence on the internet.. Your basic argument is deny it all while knowing what I am telling you is not incorrect. Thus the basic points are as follows:

1) 100% are all illegal
2) 100% are all undocumented
3) 100% all either have ficticious SSN's, stolen SSN's, or purchased SSN's
4) Illegal aliens do in fact VOTE!
5) 100% all have committed employment fraud
6) 100% all have committed tax fraud
7) 100% all have committed a Federal Crime
100% all have cost us taxpayers money jumping the fence
9) Thousands commit further crime, and thousands are in our prison system
10) Illegal immigrant Gangs pose a big problem, and an ever increasing problem
11) 100% have all committed credit fraud (just by using fake ID's or SSN's to open bank accounts, or to even have cable TV)
13) Every American that has their ID stolen by an illegal immigrant goes through hell trying to rectify it, and it costs them money, time, and stress.. Many have their entire credit history destroyed and end up paying for it.  
14) all of these are valid reasons to deport, make it absolutely illegal to hire them, or take away any benefits they could possibly capitalize on by levying hefty fines on businesses, banks, or schools for having them.. These should receive benefits for having legal immigrants to give incentives to not just the schools, banks, and businesses, but to legal immigrants that come here through the proper channels..

1 and 2: Wow, 100% of illegal immigrants are illegal immigrants? That's so useful in your argument.
3: You stated earlier it was the majority, and in the same post said 100%, then you said the majority is correct and now we're back to 100%? Can you keep your baseless assertions straight? Again, which is it: the majority or 100%? Let's keep it straight this time.
4: I'm sure that at least a few do, maybe even all of them, however in order for me to be concerned with this I need to know how big the problem is, I.E.: how many are voting?
5 and 6: I find it hard to believe 100% have committed employment and tax fraud, how can you be so sure that every illegal immigrant works for money?
7: Yes read my response to 1 and 2. While I think the naturalization process needs a major overhaul, I do think they should pay for their crimes because just getting away with it doesn't do well enough to bring the attention to the problem at hand. They should jump the fence, get arrested and explain why they jumped the fence instead of going through the immigration process... which is why I brought up MLK Jr.. Not to throw in the race card, but because that is a very effective strategy to bringing about change to an unjust system: Break an unjust law, then pay for it so people notice how unjust the laws are.
8: Still, the 100% thing doesn't really make sense, I doubt anyone can prove that every single illegal immigrant costs us money, unless it's just a cost applied to all of them, like condiments in a restaurant: the restaurant pays for them for everyone, whether everyone uses them or not.
9 and 10: I can agree with that baseless estimate, however I would like to see some solid facts on it to see if it's more important than other things.
11: Still gonna have a lot to prove to be sure that every single illegal immigrant has done these things.
13: Same for people who get their Id's stolen by people in other countries and U.S. citizens, I'm not arguing whether it's a bad thing or not, I'm trying to see whether illegal immigrants stealing Id's is more prevalent than U.S. citizens or other countries doing it to see where I should be more concerned. If not many illegal immigrants are doing it then why focus on them when there is a bigger problem with U.S. citizens doing it or vice versa.
14: Most of these reasons are not valid, however I do think that there should be no employment or schooling for illegal aliens.

It's not a circular game it's the standard of evidence. I'd really have no problem if you said that your conclusions are just mere speculation and that you don't have any reasonable evidence to back it up and other people may come to a different conclusion based on the little evidence you provided. Really, just stop saying that people that disagree with your baseless assertions are ignoring the evidence, when you're not providing any.k

Wrong because I have all those sources to back me up! Hence, I have called and contacted many of these places, and I have yet to have one not concur to my overall assessment.. If you want to just disagree with me that is up to you, but if you really want to challenge me, I dare you to even call the INS, or just one of California's main school districts ectra.. Hell, call the IRS on figures for the last election in regards to this issue.. Like I said, the problem with your argument is that the evidence you so specifically want can only be accessed by contacting them. Or if you are lucky, you can find some of it buried in millions of links concerning illegal immigrants.. The only thing I see you doing is you just trying to find a way to ignore the problems or to simply excuse or dismiss the problems.

Wrong, if you contacted them and got the evidence then you have the evidence and can produce it.

I wasn't tossing the race card at all, I was tossing the "unjust laws should be changed" card into the mix, but if you want to get all racist on my ass then go ahead. The other point is, "just because it's illegal, doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong." But go ahead and use my example of "people peaceably being civilly disobedient in order to change unjust laws"

Again these Federal laws are not unjust laws, and these illegal immigrants have no right to be here to demand any laws be change or even legislated. And committing Fraud, ID theft, or Federal crimes is not an act of civility. Expecting others to pay for your life is not civility, it's selfish arrogance.. Hence, you actually think the laws that protect our Identities, and lives are some how magically unjust? What a load of crap that is!.

The load of crap is that I don't think any of that, and this is an example of you straw manning my argument.

into something racial that you get offended by. Go ahead, try to drop this example showing you that your absolutes are irrational. That by the way, is another dishonest argument tactic.

There should have been no racial context or unintended context to begin with.. When you start tossing things like the KKK, Nazis, ectra around, you are essentially playing the card.. I suggest you refrain from doing so! Because even though I am Brazilian, There are other people of other races that don't need to hear that garbage.

I was not playing the race card at all, just showing you that your blanket statement of "you disagree with me so you support X" is irrational. So either you accept my statement or drop both yours and mine.

I'm just providing an equal statement, supported by equal evidence, being equally offensive to the statement you made. So you accept my statement as "fact" like you want us to accept your statement. We both get to play by the same rules. If you make baseless assertions and state that they're "facts", then I get to as well and you have no way of disregarding my statements without applying the same rules to your own statements (thereby you refuting yourself).

Not even remotely close to an equal statement.. Nothing I have stated is baseless assertion, I know much of this from my own circles of friends, and the fact that I have made the effort to actually find out what really goes on..

If nothing you've stated is a baseless assertion, then provide the basis for them.

Good job, now you just need to provide some kind of evidence for your statement that the majority have SSN's, or just say that's it's made up.

And what SSN's do you suppose illegal immigrants are using? Legal ones :/

Not all of them need SSN's. In fact only ones that need to get certain jobs need SSN's, while getting paid under the table doesn't require any false identity. So once again, provide the evidence for the majority steal SSN's (or 100% steal SSN's whichever you finally decide on), or just admit that it's just speculation or a hunch.

I'm sure you could just find thousands of random links that have nothing to do with the topic at hand... but that's not what I'm asking for. This thing about posting random links that provide hardly any specifics at all (unfounded or not), doesn't help you at all and it's extremely rude.

Like I said, you will simply dismiss any information I point to.. And those links were simply the first few that came up in the search engine.. And sorry, they get much of that information from law enforcement LOL.. Much of the statistics you find on these gangs come from the arrests of undocumented foreigners. The only consensus you really need to know is how many are sitting in our prisons..

Here are some old statistics
illegals in prison
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/NIFCJS.PDF
But what's really interesting is that even the 2009 and 2010 reports conveniently removed this category from their reports..

Example of Educational costs:
http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index ... _port.html


Illegal Immigrant Figures and Info from Minnesota, The state where my parents live.
http://www.state.mn.us/mn/externalDocs/ ... f%2026.pdf

Lets play the ID theft Example:
[youtube:3kvl265d]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HKnnYLmcBI[/youtube:3kvl265d]

Oh how about sold SSN's for a 100 bucks.. Children's ID's

Oh hell, lets give a Stolen ID theft case example:

Oh let's watch a real investigation:
[youtube:3kvl265d]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvZ6U3vTg3A[/youtube:3kvl265d]

I didn't just dismiss them offhand, I responded to why I dismissed them. Did you not notice my criticisms of why I dismissed them? Do you even read what I type or do you just have an argument with someone else while pretending to respond to me?

The article you cited said nothing of free college. It stated some financial aid, but not free college. Just call it what it is, some financial support and I don't have a problem with not supporting an illegal immigrants pursuit of higher education, but I wouldn't say it's free when it's not.

There are loop holes, and no illegal immigrant should get any kind of state intuition, grants, ectra.. The following is just a first search example. And it includes scholarships.. That's right, I'm once again footing the bill for an illegals education..

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/13 ... etail.html
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/met ... 13695.html

B: No, B = no free ride to illegal immigrants!

C: These are free clinics for legal citizens paid by legal citizens.. This is only possible by local state funding! These free clinics are not there for illegal immigrants to leech from or use as their own private hospitals when the poor legal people in this country need those clinics!.. it's like stealing candy from a baby. They don't belong here, and they shouldn't even be in these clinics costing us money, and taking up resources that belong to the legal citizen!

Again, I don't disagree that these services should not be provided to illegal immigrants, but how much damage is it doing?

Here's an example: Music companies spent trillions of dollars on copy protection technology to prevent pirating of their Intellectual Property (IP), when each thing they came up with was cracked within a few days of being released. Additionally, even if the anti-piracy technology were 100% successful, it wouldn't overcome the cost of the anti-piracy technology, so they'd still be losing money. It would be a much better business plan to go with the technology while charging a fee than to try to stop it entirely... which has shown to be effective with iTunes and other paid downloading services. Now to relate the example: If preventing the illegal immigrants from using the paid services costs tax payers more than just letting them use the service then why should we try to stop the problem. However if we can prevent it to save tax payers money then we should: I just want to see the data so that I can determine the overall cost of fixing the problem vs. how much the problem is costing. You claim you know this and there is evidence for it, just provide the evidence.