Arizona's Illegal Immigration Law

[Sophus]

I'm not sure how many other states are considering adopting a law like Arizona's (wouldn't surprise me if Texas is). As I mentioned in an earlier post Rick Scott (MediCare Fraud guy) wants to bring Arizona's law to Florida. In fact, that's about all he's betting on to get himself in Tallahassee. I'm hoping we get anybody other than this radical loon (and crook) and although I'm opposed to such a law I'm wondering if there are legitimate arguments in favor of it that aren't founded on myths and bigotry extremism.

A common argument is that they take up jobs. Well, many of them take jobs nobody else wants to do. Jobs that are even beneath those who have diplomas and degrees who can't find work. But illegal immigrants do not merely take jobs. They are consumers as well, and thus, as agreed upon by economists, create jobs by making the economy larger (although the effect is only mildly positive to neutral).  Overall, they're not hurting the economy.

It also appears to be a complete myth that they can receive welfare. Unless their children are born here, only then can they be eligible by the Jus Soli law. Tax dollars also do not go toward their emergency health treatment. Although hidden fees at hospitals do.

Another thought is, immigration is the very history of America. Part of the purpose of its existence is to take in "the tired, the poor..." to aid in the pursuit of happines... What happened to that?



What we really need to look for are the terrorist who immigrate illegally. But how would kicking out all the workers aid this cause? We have ways of targeting and preventing terrorism, however imperfect, I don't see how this would be of any significant help.

What do you think? Do we need such stern illegal immigration laws?

[i_am_i]

Illegal immigration laws are already in place, they're just not being enforced, don't ask me why. The Arizona law is a bad bit of reactionary legislation that could very well lead to all kinds of abuses.

I do not like the way people confuse legal immigration with illegal immigration. I went through thousands of dollars to pay an immigration lawyer to bring my British wife over to this country, and the obstacle course I had to run was ridiculous. She's a highly educated coronary care nurse, we were legally married and I am an American citizen, yet I had to spend hours on the telephone with the INS going over and over my "case," one form after another to fill out only to be told that that essentially they didn't believe me. That's when I got a lawyer, and even then we were given a very difficult time. The interview with the INS officer was like being interrogated by the Gestapo.

And guess what? She's now making close to $80,000 a year working at one of the most respected coronary care units in the country. And she's a U.S. citizen.

So I get a little emotional, a little bit pissed off, when I see people standing up for the "rights" of illegal immigrants.  It's a difficult topic for me.

[Davin]

My biggest problem seems to be the conservatives point on being complacent with the law: it's already a federal crime. Of course I believe in States being able to create laws specific to the State, however immigration is a federal issue and State laws should have no precedence over federal issues. I believe that making a federal crime a State crime is beyond stupid.

Another major point people bring up are jobs and our countries ability to support that many new immigrants. I would think that by the amount of illegal immigrants here already that are working and buying things, that the answer would be obvious... but the answer is that our country an support them, and I think would be better all around if they were all legal.

I think the third major point is crime. However all studies have shown that (other than being illegal immigrants), illegal immigrants have the same percentage of criminals as any legal U.S. citizen in the same socioeconomic level. I don't have the studies off hand and am willing to go search for them if anyone disagrees with this point and wants me to fulfill my evidence part of the claim.

On top of that, immigration really needs a severe overhaul. It takes too long, costs too much and prevents too many people from entering legally. That's my 2 pesos on the subject.

[Sophus]

So I get a little emotional, a little bit pissed off, when I see people standing up for the "rights" of illegal immigrants. It's a difficult topic for me.

This is why I think the process should be made simpler (granted not all cases would be as difficult as yours). If they're in poverty I don't see how hiring a lawyer would be much of an option. And many don't won't to live permanently in the States, but wish to work so they can return to their families with a decent paycheck.

[i_am_i]

So I get a little emotional, a little bit pissed off, when I see people standing up for the "rights" of illegal immigrants. It's a difficult topic for me.

This is why I think the process should be made simpler (granted not all cases would be as difficult as yours). If they're in poverty I don't see how hiring a lawyer would be much of an option. And many don't won't to live permanently in the States, but wish to work so they can return to their families with a decent paycheck.

Let's get very real here. What we're talking about is Mexicans. And if you're telling me that many illegal Mexican immigrants come here to make a little money and then return to Mexico then I have to ask you where you get that idea from. Come on. How much money do you think they're going to be taking back with them?

Yes! It's not politically correct for me to say that! But the constant flow of illegal immigrants from Mexico into this country is a problem that is completely out of control. For one thing, are you okay with the idea of these people creating what amounts to a huge second class of quasi-citizens, one that is by default endorsed and at the same time exploited by the United States government? The idea devalues humanity, making it into a commodity.

Can you imagine what it's like to be a Mexican laboror living in this country illegaly? That this is a situation that such a person would choose over the realities of living in his own country, away from his family and culture, speaks volumes about what it is we're all dealing with here, and to simplify the immigration process is simply not the answer.

And I think I'd probably better duck out of this thread now.

[McQ]

Key word is illegal, in illegal immigration. Nothing happened to "give me your tired, your poor, etc."

But illegal immigration is, well, illegal. Let's not grant more rights to people who enter the country illegally than the legal citizens. No problem with legal immigration. It's how my family got here. Is it just chic or something to bash Arizona for this? And how is their law actually illegal? I'm stumped trying to figure it out. I honestly would like to know. This isn't a strong suit for me, so I would like to be better educated on it.

[Sophus]

And I think I'd probably better duck out of this thread now.

You're fine.    I feel you're making reasonable arguments for you case, as oppose to many others such as the Tea Party and the like.

Some of them are definitely taking jobs that, as you say, turn them into "second class quasi-citizens". Unfortunately, their circumstance here as such is probably better than it is back home, at least in some way. These are, however, jobs that need to be done and are beneath many natives. Deporting them from the country could hurt the economy. Since they're helping the economy as it is, it's difficult for me to see why their population would be considered out of control.
Honestly I don't know what all types of jobs they're taking nor am I even sure if accurate statistics can be produced for that. The way I see it though is that it's their decision and if they deem it worthy then, presumably, that's the case. Some illegal immigrants stay here for a few months or years to work before going back. Others stay and others still eventually become legal.

It would be interesting to hear why you think we shouldn't simplify the naturalization process. Especially considering all you've been through. (Not meaning to provoke any emotion here. Just a genuine curiosity.)

Arizona, however, is also fighting a drug war on its borders. So it is a little more reasonable to have this law there than it is here in Florida.

[pinkocommie]

My opposition to the Arizona law has nothing to do with immigrants, legal or illegal.  It has to do with the law itself.

It requires police officers, “when practicable,” to detain people they reasonably suspect are in the country without authorization and to verify their status with federal officials, unless doing so would hinder an investigation or emergency medical treatment.

It also makes it a state crime â€" a misdemeanor â€" to not carry immigration papers. In addition, it allows people to sue local government or agencies if they believe federal or state immigration law is not being enforced.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/24/us/politics/24immig.html


So as far as I can tell, this law is telling police that unless they harass people who may or may not be immigrants, they can be sued by the public.

I understand that illegal immigration is an issue, I just don't think this is a solution people should support.  I feel like it not only encourages racial profiling, but it mandates it.

[Sophus]

Key word is illegal, in illegal immigration. Nothing happened to "give me your tired, your poor, etc."

But illegal immigration is, well, illegal. Let's not grant more rights to people who enter the country illegally than the legal citizens. No problem with legal immigration. It's how my family got here. Is it just chic or something to bash Arizona for this? And how is their law actually illegal? I'm stumped trying to figure it out. I honestly would like to know. This isn't a strong suit for me, so I would like to be better educated on it.

It's not that I think illegals should have more or as many rights, but that we should at least be understanding of the various array of crappy situations they could fall under. If a Cuban hits the coast of Florida, they can stay. They're a refugee. Well, Cuba's government is indeed more harsh than Mexico's but you also have to consider the quality of life there, among other factors. These folks are actively pursuing a better life and contributing to our economy, so as long as they don't commit any crimes that truly hurt somebody in any way or form, what real reason could I have against them being in the country?  Plenty of illegals wish to be legal. If it were so simple they would be legal.

I have friends and family members who give to charities which help those in poverty in foreign nations. Ironically, they oppose both the new health care plan and tolerating illegals because they don't want their taxes to go toward others who haven't "picked themselves up by their bootstraps". I'm still trying to figure this logic out....

[Sophus]

My opposition to the Arizona law has nothing to do with immigrants, legal or illegal.  It has to do with the law itself.

It requires police officers, “when practicable,” to detain people they reasonably suspect are in the country without authorization and to verify their status with federal officials, unless doing so would hinder an investigation or emergency medical treatment.

It also makes it a state crime â€" a misdemeanor â€" to not carry immigration papers. In addition, it allows people to sue local government or agencies if they believe federal or state immigration law is not being enforced.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/24/us/politics/24immig.html


So as far as I can tell, this law is telling police that unless they harass people who may or may not be immigrants, they can be sued by the public.

I understand that illegal immigration is an issue, I just don't think this is a solution people should support.  I feel like it not only encourages racial profiling, but it mandates it.

url=http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/04/23/immigration.faq/index.html]CNN[/url]  "]It also targets those who hire illegal immigrant laborers or knowingly transport them.

Does this mean if they hire illegal immigrants unknowlingly, employers can still be targeted? Sounds that way.

[McQ]

My opposition to the Arizona law has nothing to do with immigrants, legal or illegal.  It has to do with the law itself.

It requires police officers, “when practicable,” to detain people they reasonably suspect are in the country without authorization and to verify their status with federal officials, unless doing so would hinder an investigation or emergency medical treatment.

It also makes it a state crime â€" a misdemeanor â€" to not carry immigration papers. In addition, it allows people to sue local government or agencies if they believe federal or state immigration law is not being enforced.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/24/us/politics/24immig.html


So as far as I can tell, this law is telling police that unless they harass people who may or may not be immigrants, they can be sued by the public.

I understand that illegal immigration is an issue, I just don't think this is a solution people should support.  I feel like it not only encourages racial profiling, but it mandates it.

One thing I haven't done is actually read the law. It is undoubtedly long and full of legalese, so I've been hesitant to give it a go, especially since it's outside of any areas I'm familiar with. I'll have to eventually break down and read it. The devil is in the details, right?

I'm still perplexed at how most people who don't like the law still think it's ok for people to be in this country illegally. That's where I get hung up, because the U.S. has a process for allowing immigrants into the country. And we sure don't have nearly the toughest immigration laws in the world. We have to be able to control our borders and the influx of immigration.

Oh well, of to Chicago in a few hours, so this will have to go on the back burner for me for now.

[Davin]

Key word is illegal, in illegal immigration.

When considering to change something, just saying something is illegal is in my opinion, not good enough. There are many examples of things that were illegal and had people not peaceably broken those unjust laws, we'd probably still have separate but equal water fountains.

Nothing happened to "give me your tired, your poor, etc."

The cost, time and knowledge of the immigration system it takes to become a U.S. citizen has changed that. No longer does this statement match the U.S. immigration policies. But then again, maybe we should change that to not allow the tired, the poor, the huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse and the homeless.

But illegal immigration is, well, illegal. Let's not grant more rights to people who enter the country illegally than the legal citizens.

Again, just because something is illegal doesn't mean that it should be illegal. If Christians made a law that said we all had to pray to their god everyday, would you support this just because otherwise it would be illegal?

No problem with legal immigration. It's how my family got here. Is it just chic or something to bash Arizona for this? And how is their law actually illegal?

Immigration is a federal issue not a state issue, so the state is attempting to take precedence over federal issues. It's kind of like a State declaring war on someone, there are some things the State is not allowed to make bills for or against. I know some people say that drugs are a federal issue but some states allow MJ, I think the difference is kind of obvious that smoking MJ is a lot different than people from another country coming into this country.

The only issue I think that is important is what damage are the illegal immigrants doing? I really don't see them causing that much harm to anyone else.

[pinkocommie]

My opposition to the Arizona law has nothing to do with immigrants, legal or illegal.  It has to do with the law itself.

It requires police officers, “when practicable,” to detain people they reasonably suspect are in the country without authorization and to verify their status with federal officials, unless doing so would hinder an investigation or emergency medical treatment.

It also makes it a state crime â€" a misdemeanor â€" to not carry immigration papers. In addition, it allows people to sue local government or agencies if they believe federal or state immigration law is not being enforced.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/24/us/politics/24immig.html


So as far as I can tell, this law is telling police that unless they harass people who may or may not be immigrants, they can be sued by the public.

I understand that illegal immigration is an issue, I just don't think this is a solution people should support.  I feel like it not only encourages racial profiling, but it mandates it.

One thing I haven't done is actually read the law. It is undoubtedly long and full of legalese, so I've been hesitant to give it a go, especially since it's outside of any areas I'm familiar with. I'll have to eventually break down and read it. The devil is in the details, right?

I'm still perplexed at how most people who don't like the law still think it's ok for people to be in this country illegally. That's where I get hung up, because the U.S. has a process for allowing immigrants into the country. And we sure don't have nearly the toughest immigration laws in the world. We have to be able to control our borders and the influx of immigration.

Oh well, of to Chicago in a few hours, so this will have to go on the back burner for me for now.

Yeah, I'm totally on the fence about illegal immigration.  I feel like people should immigrate legally, but at the same time I think if it were that easy we wouldn't have the illegal issue that we have.  I don't know enough about the immigration process to have an informed opinion.  After hearing stories like i_am_i's, it seems like immigrating here isn't terribly easy - but I don't think that means that people who go the illegal route should be given the same treatment as people who follow the rules and jump though the hoops, so to speak.  The Arizona law, however, seems to be a poorly thought out solution to this obviously complicated issue.

So yeah - I don't think opposing the Arizona law is a vote of support for illegal immigration I guess is my point.  

[Big Mac]

Illegal immigrants are just people like you and me. They come here fleeing horrible conditions and grinding poverty you and I cannot even imagine. To act like that is a crime in itself is a little sadistic. I think we need to reform our laws. We live in a world where borders are becoming much more fluid due to advances in technology and social changes.

If anything, I think the government should target the people hiring illegal immigrants. No jobs means a decrease in illegals. The current recession is proof of that. Illegals from Mexico have stopped flowing into the States  as much, many citing the dismal job market.

Now imagine if we attacked the source of those jobs, there would be fewer illegals.

Do I think we should just open the flood gates and let anyone in? Of course not. But we also have many people we turn away or deport that would be very good citizens for this country. To me it's like banning openly gay people from the armed forces. We lose many qualified and valuable assets merely because of antiquated rules.

[Kylyssa]

If anything, I think the government should target the people hiring illegal immigrants. No jobs means a decrease in illegals. The current recession is proof of that. Illegals from Mexico have stopped flowing into the States  as much, many citing the dismal job market.

Now imagine if we attacked the source of those jobs, there would be fewer illegals.

This is my thought exactly.  People "wink-wink-nudge-nudge" know what businesses hire illegals, I could name five or six businesses right here in Grand Rapids Michigan and it's probably the same elsewhere.  Make businesses in question prove their workers are legal and no one gets pulled over for "driving while Mexican" or for being brown while out walking the dog.

On a side note - the people behind this law are associated with the National Socialist Movement - yes - actual neo-Nazis.  Fucked up.