"Life is Material & Natural" but not everything is material?

[jimmorrisonbabe]

The problem i have with this quote is that not everything is material - yes i believe everything happens naturally and obeys its own laws in this universe and is not down to supernatural forces, but things like gravity and magnetic forces are invisible. How can we be sure god-like forces aren't within these? Although I know they would have most likely been discovered now if they existed. Sorry if this sounds a bit of a pointless post, it's just the problem with everything being empirical - there are things going on we can't see as well.

[Tank]

The problem i have with this quote is that not everything is material - yes i believe everything happens naturally and obeys its own laws in this universe and is not down to supernatural forces, but things like gravity and magnetic forces are invisible. How can we be sure god-like forces aren't within these? Although I know they would have most likely been discovered now if they existed. Sorry if this sounds a bit of a pointless post, it's just the problem with everything being empirical - there are things going on we can't see as well.

There are lots of things we can't perceive with our limited senses. However the virtuous circle of science > technology > science continually expands out indirect perception of those things around us. Some of these expansions lead to discovery of material objects, germs (microscope) other planets (telescopes). Others lead us to expand our understanding of the electromagnetic spectrum to radio waves, infra red, ultraviolet and gamma rays. As an evolved creature we simple are not kitted out to perceive that which is unnecessary for our immediate survival and ultimate reproduction. We don't have to be ashamed of the hand natural selection has  dealt us, we should be pleased it's as good as it is. We don't need anything beyond the empirical to be human.

[JillSwift]

The problem you're encountering here is that it's next to impossible to be sure of what is not. Science has to be a positive epistemology, recognizing only that which we have evidence for. Using the gravity example, we can observe gravity exists (Hurray for Newton being hit on the noodle by an apple  

[Tank]

It helped me! Nicely concise.

[TheJackel]

Everything has to be made of something, and can not be made of nothing. There is no such thing as non-material physicality. Some things are only suggested as non-material but really are not. The Universal substance to the entirety of existence as a whole is Energy.. Everything is entirely comprised of energy.. E=MC2 means energy can covert to matter and matter can convert to energy. What you perceive to be nothing is nothing more than zero base energy, or the lowest possible energy level on the plank and length scale.  Since -1 energy is impossible, so is the impossibility of absolute zero according to thermodynamics 3rd law, and this is because energy self-osculates, and self-organizes through Electrodynamics, or positive and negative feed back loops according to chaos theory and Emergence.. There is also the fact that -1 spatial dimension is impossible, and you can not physically have a negative existing spatial space.. Thus non-material physicality is impossible..


So when someone tries to tell you that something can be non-material or non-physical in a literal sense, they are basically trying to tell you that something can exist and not exist at the same time. Things can not exist without being comprised of something, exist without having dimensional physicality, or have a place to exist in. There can be no Phenomenon without material physicality.

Simply put, existence exists because non-existence can not be a literal object, person, place, thing, or substance... Hence, there never was nothing and there is and always was energy.

Some good things to look up:

Vacuum energy
4 stages of matter
Emergence
Chaos Theory
Quantum Electrodynamics
3rd law of Thermodynamics
Self-organization

[TheJackel]

The problem you're encountering here is that it's next to impossible to be sure of what is not. Science has to be a positive epistemology, recognizing only that which we have evidence for. Using the gravity example, we can observe gravity exists (Hurray for Newton being hit on the noodle by an apple  

Thus far gravity is the only force that has yet to be unified with the 3 other unified forces.. the strong, weak, and electromagnetic forces have all been unified.. The problem is, Gravity is suspected to be a phenomenon closely related to the Higgs field, and unifying Gravity as Hawking has said, "runs the risk of blowing ourselves up".. However, Gravity isn't even essential for life, and neither is the weak force.. The water bear is a prime example of life that can survive in Space within comets so long as it would have adequate protection from cosmic radiation.. Without protection the water bear can last up to 11 days fully exposed.. However, you are indeed correct that there is no need for a GOD, and this is especially true since existence can not be created. And we can also ask the damning question of what material physical substance is said GOD made of, surely it wouldn't be made of nothing.. Thus, we can completely nullify the existence of a "creator", or a GOD..

[jimmorrisonbabe]

And we can also ask the damning question of what material physical substance is said GOD made of, surely it wouldn't be made of nothing.. Thus, we can completely nullify the existence of a "creator", or a GOD..

Hey, isn't this kinda like the Disembodied Mind Argument as well? That's a good one against God.

Love these posts guys, have really helped! Especially your contributions, Jackel! Fantastic!

[TheJackel]

[Will]

MY EYES!!  

[TheJackel]

sorry Will, that wasn't my intention lol.. Plus I forget that I am on a 42" HDTV ..