News:

Departing the Vacuousness

Main Menu

do secular schools exist?

Started by mary8182, December 07, 2009, 10:46:25 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

mary8182

I'm not a parent... yet. I work in different schools throughout Michigan and Ohio and I have come to find that there really is no such thing as a secular school.  Perhaps I am just hoping that one day I won't hear the word God in a school or see a poster with the word God on it... and I'm talking about public schools.

So atheist parents... do you have your children stand up or the pledge of allegiance? Am I crazy to not want my child to do so, when he or she exists ;) Do they opt out of the Christmas musicals & artwork.  Are there schools out there that are truly secular and don't assume that a child is Christian?

Whitney

The school my husband teaches at is completely secular.It's a charter school (funded like public school but privately run).

Public schools should be secular...I don't have kids of my own yet but I'd be THAT mom if I had a kid who was having religion pushed on them at school.  From my understanding, most of the schools in Dallas are (decently) good about maintaining a proper separation of church and state.  However, a friend has had some issues with Fort Worth Schools.

karadan

Summerhill in Suffolk, UK, is pretty much the most secular school i can think of. It goes the other way, though. The kids decide on the rules. You don't have to go to lessons if you don't want to. You are free to 'find yourself' in any way you choose. If that means staying in bed all day, then so be it.

We visited Summerhill for sociology (my school was only about 20 miles from Summerhill). Was a pretty mad place. Was also a bit of a dump (no one would tell a kid off for grafitiing the main hall, for example). They don't seem to do religion there. Well, they don't seem to do much of anything there :)

http://www.summerhillschool.co.uk/
QuoteI find it mistifying that in this age of information, some people still deny the scientific history of our existence.

OldGit

The law in England and Wales

The most recent legal statement of the requirements for collective worship (as distinct from assembly) are contained in the School Standards and Framework Act 1998. These build on similar requirements in Section 346 of the Education Act 1996, the Education Reform Act 1988, and Section 25 of the 1944 Education Act, where the law on compulsory collective worship began. Section 70 of the 1998 Act states that, subject to the parental right of excusal or other special arrangements, "…each pupil in attendance at a community, foundation or voluntary school shall on each school day take part in an act of collective worship."

Schedule 20 to the 1998 Act gives more detailed information on the worship requirements. It notes the different practical arrangements that are allowed: "a single act of worship for all pupils or separate acts of worship for pupils in different age groups or in different school groups." A "school group" is defined as "any group in which pupils are taught or take part in other school activities".

LovingLife

Let me try to answer this question since I think it is a great one.

A little background on myself should be presented thou.  I myself come from a non practicing (or really believing ) Catholic mother and a once "Jesus-freak" Protestant father.  Both, by the time I was born had no set views on god, other than a dislike of religion as an institution.  I still to this day do not know my father's personal beliefs because he could play the advocate of the devil :p Myself and my two older sisters attended a small private Catholic school, although none of us are baptised or believe in the Catholic faith.  This was because of the reputations of the public schools and the education standards of Baltimore city for elementary and middle schools.  We got a good education, minus the once a day 40 min religion class.  Granted I was actively hated by my fellow Catholic peers, had no friends, was berated everyday and hated life as I knew it, but the education I could not complain about.  That hatred towards me also made me into a stronger individual who takes no crap, always has justification for any harm I do to others, and will not stand by to see people commit a crime of ignorance in the name of a religion or a god.

I personally am not a parent yet, but my fiance and myself are both atheists.  That being said, should the best school in my area be one that also is religion (speaking about private schools) then that is where my children will go.  Hopefully by their age of reason, I will have been able to implant in them how to look at an idea, any idea, with reason and logic to determine their own belief in it.

Personally I think your child's education should come before your hope that they do not believe in god.

As for the question of the Pledge of Allegiance. I would hope that you encourage your child to participate in standing with pride for his country.  Although, it does contain a reference to god, it is history, history that you nor I can change despite our lack of belief in that particular deity.  It instills pride in our symbols, our history, our country, our government (the form not necessarily the politicians today)and our ideals of citizens and human rights.

Whitney

Quote from: "LovingLife"As for the question of the Pledge of Allegiance. I would hope that you encourage your child to participate in standing with pride for his country.  Although, it does contain a reference to god, it is history, history that you nor I can change despite our lack of belief in that particular deity.  It instills pride in our symbols, our history, our country, our government (the form not necessarily the politicians today)and our ideals of citizens and human rights.

I actually have a complete opposite view of the pledge, even if it didn't mention God I wouldn't encourage my (future) kids to say it.  I don't think children should be indoctrinated into patriotism any more than they should be indoctrinated into a religion....and pledging your allegiance before you understand what that means is a form of indoctrination.  Of course, I'm not the most patriotic person myself...while there are things to be proud of there are also a lot of things in our history that are shameful; but the one thing I am proud of is that this country allows me the freedom to criticize it openly.

LovingLife

Quote from: "Whitney"Of course, I'm not the most patriotic person myself...while there are things to be proud of there are also a lot of things in our history that are shameful; but the one thing I am proud of is that this country allows me the freedom to criticize it openly.

In which you would have absolutely no right to do so were the history of this country different, the actions of people that fought for this country different, the laws of this country different, and the constitution never written.  How is it ever indoctrination to teach your child to be proud of the system that we have that gives him the freedom to believe what he choose, the freedom to criticize the laws that he disagrees with, and the freedom to try to change those laws for the betterment of this whole country?

You say that you are un-patriotic and yet reveal in the fact that you are not thrown into prison and/or branded a traitor for disagree with the things you disagree with and "criticize openly".  Here is a newsflash....all children learn from their parents, their peers, their teachers, their family members, from society.  What is learning from others people's beliefs systems starting at a young age called....indoctrination.  You are unpatriotic therefor will be indoctrinating your child that by your words, actions and behavior in which they will mimic because that is what they primarily see.

Whitney

I'm just saying there is a difference between appreciating the freedoms we have and pledging allegiance to a government.  Kids don't know what it means to pledge loyalty to something so they shouldn't be asked to do so.  Plus pledging loyalty means basically always backing up that country, if American does something stupid (like invade Iraq for fake WMDs) then I'm not going to be loyal to that decision.

LovingLife

Quote from: "Whitney"I'm just saying there is a difference between appreciating the freedoms we have and pledging allegiance to a government.  Kids don't know what it means to pledge loyalty to something so they shouldn't be asked to do so.  Plus pledging loyalty means basically always backing up that country, if American does something stupid (like invade Iraq for fake WMDs) then I'm not going to be loyal to that decision.

Being loyal to this country and what it stands for and the freedoms you enjoy does not mean that you follow blindly in the least, which is what you are insinuating. I took an oath to this country personally and then publically when I vowed to protect it at all cost from both foreign and domestic threats.  That is to include threats to the constitution that the government does all the time.  I protect the process of allowing the people to have a say in the government, because THAT is what loyalty to this country means.  Not the decisions of our leaders, but the process in which we elect those leaders, the process in which we protest the actions of those leaders when they make a decision that is contrary to the foundation of this country.  You perception of loyalty is skewed.  You also do not know the reason for invading Iraq or Afghanistan (a war that has been waging longer than Iraq) because the government lies.  There are some truths that involve national security, state secrets, and frankly the government has decided the ignorant public needs not know.  Shitty yes.  Be loyal to this country by demanding that the government be loyal to this country.  Teach your kids that loyalty.

April

My son's school (public) is doesn't seem to be.  The Christmas programs had songs like Away in a Manger and God Rest ye Mary.  As far as the pledge of allegiance.  I've never been bothered by the "one nation under God" part.

I am trying to get him into a Montessori school for next year.  They said that they are not religious at all, but we will see.

Sophus

Quote from: "mary8182"So atheist parents... do you have your children stand up or the pledge of allegiance?

Hell no. I think making kids say the pledge is repulsive and don't ever let them tell try to punish a child for not saying it. It is controversy over nothing. Even at my son's school they say a child must have a parental note in order to get out of it which they still have no right to do. Here's some info on the history of the pledge in the courts for those interested: http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/speech/studentexpression/topic.aspx?topic=pledge
‎"Christian doesn't necessarily just mean good. It just means better." - John Oliver

dogsmycopilot

Quote from: "mary8182"I'm not a parent... yet. I work in different schools throughout Michigan and Ohio and I have come to find that there really is no such thing as a secular school.  Perhaps I am just hoping that one day I won't hear the word God in a school or see a poster with the word God on it... and I'm talking about public schools.

So atheist parents... do you have your children stand up or the pledge of allegiance? Am I crazy to not want my child to do so, when he or she exists ;) Do they opt out of the Christmas musicals & artwork.  Are there schools out there that are truly secular and don't assume that a child is Christian?
I don't know of any which is why we homeschool. Be careful how much you demand your child be different if you are going to choose to place him or her in such situations. Remember it is not you who will be picked on and sent to the office. Personally, I stopped saying the pledge of my own accord in about 8th grade. For a number of reasons. But I can respect one's decision to go along with the crowd. Making yourself stand out is not the key to success. Also you should be way more concerned about the kind of education your child gets, not where they get it.

wildfire_emissary

in my country, it is explicit in the constitution that the separation of church and state shall be inviolable. however, in state-run schools like where i teach, deans and professors traditionally hold mass during class hours using university facilities and electricity, and reading bibles purchased with tax money. i dissented so now i am the satanic anti-christ.
"All murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets." -Voltaire