“I always Lie” and theories of consciousness

[fdesilva]

You completely just made up 1 through 4; they are not constant across the board of god claims....they are terribly inconsistent with Hinduism and Buddhism.

Like I said on another thread, just like our understanding of physics, our understanding of the concept of God changes.

[fdesilva]

Lets make a new start.
You are looking at a compter screen.
Now how would you describe your conscious experiance while doing this?

description - I am looking at a computer screen.  And?

Lets say there is a blind person that feels the compter screen.
What similarities if any can you find in the word "feels" and "see" used in the 2 descriptions?

[pinkocommie]

Lets make a new start.
You are looking at a compter screen.
Now how would you describe your conscious experiance while doing this?

description - I am looking at a computer screen.  And?

Lets say there is a blind person that feels the compter screen.
What similarities if any can you find in the word "feels" and "see" used in the 2 descriptions?

Both words contain two e's and an s.

[fdesilva]

Both words contain two e's and an s.

ok so you dont find any similarities in the usage of the words "feel" and "see".
How about this:
Would you consider you looking at a Computer screen an example of a consciouss experiance?
How about a camera on a trypod taking a photo of the screen based on a timer, would the camera be having a consciouss experiance?

[pinkocommie]

Both words contain two e's and an s.

ok so you dont find any similarities in the usage of the words "feel" and "see".
How about this:
Would you consider you looking at a Computer screen an example of a consciouss experiance?
How about a camera on a trypod taking a photo of the screen based on a timer, would the camera be having a consciouss experiance?

It would depend on what you mean by 'conscious experience'.

[pinkocommie]

To be clear, I'm not trying to be intentionally difficult.  I just don't feel comfortable assuming that I know what you're trying to say considering your previous posts.

[fdesilva]

To be clear, I'm not trying to be intentionally difficult.  I just don't feel comfortable assuming that I know what you're trying to say considering your previous posts.

My understanding of what I mean by a "consciouss experiance" is what I gave by the 3 axioms at the start of this post. My guess is you dont agree with them. So why not tell me what your understanding of a "consciouss experiance" is and under that definition where the 2 cases fall. Thanks

[karadan]

To be clear, I'm not trying to be intentionally difficult.  I just don't feel comfortable assuming that I know what you're trying to say considering your previous posts.

My understanding of what I mean by a "consciouss experiance" is what I gave by the 3 axioms at the start of this post. My guess is you dont agree with them. So why not tell me what your understanding of a "consciouss experiance" is and under that definition where the 2 cases fall. Thanks

Does conscious experience even need to be clearly defined? Consciousness and experiences of consciousness are all relative seeing as we can easily alter our states of consciousness by sleeping or taking psychotropic drugs. Why should it require a clear definition?

[pinkocommie]

Considering the concept of consciousness is subjective, I could come up with several definitions for the term conscious experience.  Some would apply to both examples and others wouldn't apply to either one.

[fdesilva]

Does conscious experience even need to be clearly defined? Consciousness and experiences of consciousness are all relative seeing as we can easily alter our states of consciousness by sleeping or taking psychotropic drugs. Why should it require a clear definition?

Yes,there are altered state of consciousness. By the same token there is also a state when you a person is said to be not consciouss. Now it may be possible to come up with a set of minimal properties that a consciouss state must have in order for it to be classified as such. However even if all of them dont have anything in common, it would be possible to take one example of a consciouss state, such as a person looking at a computer screen, and see what subjective properties it has and then see if it can be reproduced in some device.

[fdesilva]

Considering the concept of consciousness is subjective, I could come up with several definitions for the term conscious experience.  Some would apply to both examples and others wouldn't apply to either one.

"Considering the concept of consciousness is subjective"
Yes, this is the big statement that seems to be in the way of studying consciousness for what it is. Please consider the following. Let's say I am studying the properties of water. Now you would say that the study of water is something objective, am I right? However I put it to you that it is as subjective, as the study of conscioussness. Let me explain.
Lets take 2 people engaged is the properties of water.
Person A, may say that it is a liquid and is colourless.
Person B,  may say the same or say if he/she as eyes that overly sensitive to part of the spectrum that it is green etc.
Now I put it to you that if A and B say the same thing, then what they are really saying is that  water induces the same conscious experience with regards to fluidity and colour.
Further and this is the key to the point I want to make.
If these 2 people were the only people in the universe. It is possible that from this study they will each come up with a list of properties. In this list lets say A says its colourless and B says no. Then they would conclude colour is subjective. So all the properties they can agree will be considered objective and those that they cannot would be subjective.
Please note that I am not saying that the water does not have any objective properties. The point I am making is that when person A is studying water, what A is studying is the model of the water created by and within its conscious experience. That model is very much as subjective to A as the “conscious experience” of A is subjective to A.

[pinkocommie]

Considering the concept of consciousness is subjective, I could come up with several definitions for the term conscious experience.  Some would apply to both examples and others wouldn't apply to either one.

"Considering the concept of consciousness is subjective"
Yes, this is the big statement that seems to be in the way of studying consciousness for what it is. Please consider the following. Let's say I am studying the properties of water. Now you would say that the study of water is something objective, am I right? However I put it to you that it is as subjective, as the study of conscioussness. Let me explain.
Lets take 2 people engaged is the properties of water.
Person A, may say that it is a liquid and is colourless.
Person B,  may say the same or say if he/she as eyes that overly sensitive to part of the spectrum that it is green etc.
Now I put it to you that if A and B say the same thing, then what they are really saying is that  water induces the same conscious experience with regards to fluidity and colour.
Further and this is the key to the point I want to make.
If these 2 people were the only people in the universe. It is possible that from this study they will each come up with a list of properties. In this list lets say A says its colourless and B says no. Then they would conclude colour is subjective. So all the properties they can agree will be considered objective and those that they cannot would be subjective.
Please note that I am not saying that the water does not have any objective properties. The point I am making is that when person A is studying water, what A is studying is the model of the water created by and within its conscious experience. That model is very much as subjective to A as the “conscious experience” of A is subjective to A.

I don't think your analogy works.  Water is a physical thing.  Consciousness is a concept.  The model of the water is still a model of a physical thing which can be quantified.  Consciousness is not quantifiable in any form.  A model of your idea of consciousness doesn't make the concept of consciousness any more quantifiable.

[fdesilva]

I don't think your analogy works.  Water is a physical thing.  Consciousness is a concept.  The model of the water is still a model of a physical thing which can be quantified.  Consciousness is not quantifiable in any form.  A model of your idea of consciousness doesn't make the concept of consciousness any more quantifiable.

Are you saying this
“Consciousness is not quantifiable in any form”
Because
“Consciousness is a concept.”
?

[pinkocommie]

I don't think your analogy works.  Water is a physical thing.  Consciousness is a concept.  The model of the water is still a model of a physical thing which can be quantified.  Consciousness is not quantifiable in any form.  A model of your idea of consciousness doesn't make the concept of consciousness any more quantifiable.

Are you saying this
“Consciousness is not quantifiable in any form”
Because
“Consciousness is a concept.”
?

Consciousness is not quantifiable because consciousness is a non physical concept.

[pinkocommie]

a non physical and subjective concept.